US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by AggieMM »

Very interesting article..... - Ryan

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_ ... _bullets_3
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WASHINGTON - As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.

As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.

"Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice," says Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. "It just has more stopping power."

Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.

The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.

Designed decades ago to puncture a Soviet soldier's helmet hundreds of yards away, the M855 rounds are being used for very different targets in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much of today's fighting takes place in close quarters; narrow streets, stairways and rooftops are today's battlefield. Legions of armor-clad Russians marching through the Fulda Gap in Germany have given way to insurgents and terrorists who hit and run.

Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric. That does not mean being shot is a pain-free experience. But unless the bullet strikes a vital organ or the spine, the adrenaline-fueled enemy may have the strength to keep on fighting and even live to fight another day.

In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets.

Yet the Army is not changing. The answer is better aim, not bigger bullets, officials say.

"If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with," said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Army's infantry school.

At about 33 cents each, bullets do not get a lot of public attention in Washington, where the size of the debate is usually measured by how much a piece of equipment costs. But billions of M855 rounds have been produced, and Congress is preparing to pay for many more. The defense request for the budget year that begins Oct. 1 seeks $88 million for 267 million M855s, each one about the size of a AAA battery.

None of the M855's shortcomings is surprising, said Don Alexander, a retired Army chief warrant officer with combat tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Somalia.

"The bullet does exactly what it was designed to do. It just doesn't do very well at close ranges against smaller-statured people that are lightly equipped and clothed," says Alexander, who spent most of his 26-year military career with the 5th Special Forces Group.

Paul Howe was part of a U.S. military task force 15 years ago in Mogadishu, Somalia's slum-choked capital, when he saw a Somali fighter hit in the back from about a dozen feet away with an M855 round.

"I saw it poof out the other side through his shirt," says Howe, a retired master sergeant and a former member of the Army's elite Delta Force. "The guy just spun around and looked at where the round came from. He got shot a couple more times, but the first round didn't faze him."

With the M855, troops have to hit their targets with more rounds, said Howe, who owns a combat shooting school in Texas. That can be tough to do under high-stress conditions when one shot is all a soldier might get.

"The bullet is just not big enough," he says. "If I'm going into a room against somebody that's determined to kill me, I want to put him down as fast as possible."

Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

"The faster a bullet hits the tissue, the more it's going to fragment," says Fackler. "Bullets that go faster cause more damage. It's that simple."

Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Hague restrictions do not apply to law enforcement agencies, however. Ballistics expert Gary Roberts said that is an inconsistency that needs to be remedied, particularly at a time when so many other types of destructive ordnance are allowed in combat.

"It is time to update this antiquated idea and allow U.S. military personnel to use the same proven ammunition," Roberts says.

In response to complaints from troops about the M855, the Army's Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey assigned a team of soldiers, scientists, doctors and engineers to examine the round's effectiveness. The team's findings, announced in May 2006, concluded there were no commercially available rounds of similar size better than the M855.

But Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Corps major, said the Army buried the study's most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent.

"It was manipulated," says Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military affairs forum called MILINET. "Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better."

Officials at Picatinny Arsenal declined to be interviewed. In an e-mailed response to questions, they called the M855 "an overall good performer." Studies are being conducted to see if it can be made more lethal without violating the Hague Convention, they said.

Larger rounds are not necessarily better, they also said. Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullet's angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.

Heavier rounds also mean more weight for soldiers to carry, as well as more recoil — the backward kick created when a round is fired. That long has been a serious issue for the military, which has troops of varied size and strength.

The M14 rifle used by Joe Higgins was once destined to be the weapon of choice for all U.S. military personnel. When switched to the automatic fire mode, the M14 could shoot several hundred rounds a minute. But most soldiers could not control the gun, and in the mid-1960s it gave way to the M16 and its smaller cartridge. The few remaining M14s are used by snipers and marksman.

U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., is buying a carbine called the SCAR Heavy for its commandos, and it shoots the same round as the M14. The regular Army, though, has invested heavily in M4 and M16 rifles and has no plans to get rid of them.

A change in expectations is needed more than a change in gear, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, chief of combat developments at Fort Benning. Soldiers go through training believing that simply hitting a part of their target is enough to kill it. On a training range, getting close to the bulls-eye counts. But in actual combat, nicking the edges isn't enough.

"Where you hit is essential to the equation," Radcliffe says. "I think the expectations are a little bit off in terms of combat performance against target range performance. And part of that is our fault for allowing that expectation to grow when it's really not there at all."

The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.

"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.
"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."
:iagree:

The human body is not made of ballistic gel and I for one am really sick of hearing quotes from a California dentist and naval reservist that present him as "the" recognized expert in the field of ballistics. I have yet to see any of Dr. Roberts credentials that qualify him to pontificate on the subject. As far as the anecdotal evidence is concerned, the problem is that there are too many variables in battle for that to have any substantial value. JMO
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by Liberty »

sounds like the Army is having the same old debate over what is the magic bullet. The same one they were having 40 years ago, the same one handgunners have here. There is no magic bullet. There is no one best for all situations. Not even a 45 auto
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.
And yet, in this thread, Dr. Martin Fackler seems to imply that bigger, heavier, slower moving bullets are more effective than smaller, lighter, faster moving bullets.

I wish he would make up his mind. :biggrinjester:
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by Liko81 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.
And yet, in this thread, Dr. Martin Fackler seems to imply that bigger, heavier, slower moving bullets are more effective than smaller, lighter, faster moving bullets.

I wish he would make up his mind. :biggrinjester:
He's not contradicting himself. A LARGER slower bullet does more damage than a lighter faster one, but a lighter faster bullet does more damage than a lighter slower one.
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by MoJo »

This debate has been going on since the invention of the firearm. I can hear it now - - - "Well General Grant, that new .45-70 sure don't stop 'em like the old .56 does." "rlol"

It's not the caliber that stops its where that caliber is applied. In a gunfight as in real estate it's "Location, Location, Location."
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by KBCraig »

AggieMM wrote:Very interesting article..... - Ryan

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_ ... _bullets_3
"If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with," said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Army's infantry school.
Give the major a cigar.
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Liko81 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.
And yet, in this thread, Dr. Martin Fackler seems to imply that bigger, heavier, slower moving bullets are more effective than smaller, lighter, faster moving bullets.

I wish he would make up his mind. :biggrinjester:
He's not contradicting himself. A LARGER slower bullet does more damage than a lighter faster one, but a lighter faster bullet does more damage than a lighter slower one.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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I ran into the same article in the Houston Chronicle at lunch, and it seems the original AP piece had a sidebar attached to it. The Chronicle article is: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5802611.html.

Here's part of what the sidebar, titled "A QUICK PRIMER ON THE M855," said (and I'm sure the title wasn't meant to be a pun):
The bullet in most M855 rounds weighs 62 grains, although there are 77-grain versions, too. By comparison, the bullet in a 7.62 mm M80 round weighs about 146 grains. Below the M855 bullet is 26 grams of WC844 gunpowder, also called propellant.
Okay. I'm no expert, and I don't even handload. But for those who do, 26 grams of WC844? Ain't that just over 400 grains of powder?

I know it's gotta be just a typo, but I'm crackin' up. If you could find a way to stuff 26 grams of propellant behind a 62-grain boat-tail bullet then, yeah: I bet that sucker would fly! You'd sure have your high velocity round then.

The scary thing is go Google "M855 bullet is 26 grams of WC844." As of right now I get 756 hits because the AP piece was picked up all over the place. Ah, media misinformation...
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

I'm far from an expert, but this subject has generated a lot of discussion ever since the military tried to turn the .223 into a .308 by going to the 62 gr. steel-cored "penetrator" round. As the article mentioned, it was designed to penetrate a helmet at a certain range (I can't recall what range). However, from the combat vets I'm talked to, the "old" 55 gr. .223 was much more effective on people, although it lacked the range of the 62 gr. I can understand the resistance to scrapping all M-16s and M-4s, but I don't understand why the military can't order the 55gr. round for use in urban areas.

This is a great excuse . . . I mean reason, to buy a Springfield SOCOM!

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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm far from an expert, but this subject has generated a lot of discussion ever since the military tried to turn the .223 into a .308 by going to the 62 gr. steel-cored "penetrator" round. As the article mentioned, it was designed to penetrate a helmet at a certain range (I can't recall what range). However, from the combat vets I'm talked to, the "old" 55 gr. .223 was much more effective on people, although it lacked the range of the 62 gr. I can understand the resistance to scrapping all M-16s and M-4s, but I don't understand why the military can't order the 55gr. round for use in urban areas.

This is a great excuse . . . I mean reason, to buy a Springfield SOCOM!
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by HankB »

Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullet's angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.
OK, weather may have an effect - extreme cold may reduce velocity. Angle of entry . . . sure. But what in the world does the amount of light have to do with lethality unless it's so dark the soldier can't hit?
Skiprr wrote:I ran into the same article in the Houston Chronicle at lunch, and it seems the original AP piece had a sidebar attached to it. The Chronicle article is: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5802611.html.

Here's part of what the sidebar, titled "A QUICK PRIMER ON THE M855," said (and I'm sure the title wasn't meant to be a pun):
The bullet in most M855 rounds weighs 62 grains, although there are 77-grain versions, too. By comparison, the bullet in a 7.62 mm M80 round weighs about 146 grains. Below the M855 bullet is 26 grams of WC844 gunpowder, also called propellant.
Okay. I'm no expert, and I don't even handload. But for those who do, 26 grams of WC844? Ain't that just over 400 grains of powder?

I know it's gotta be just a typo, but I'm crackin' up. If you could find a way to stuff 26 grams of propellant behind a 62-grain boat-tail bullet then, yeah: I bet that sucker would fly! You'd sure have your high velocity round then.

The scary thing is go Google "M855 bullet is 26 grams of WC844." As of right now I get 756 hits because the AP piece was picked up all over the place. Ah, media misinformation...
Not so funny - years ago, a fellow engineer asked my Dad about a small single shot muzzle-loading pistol he'd built from a kit - the "15 gr." of powder he was trying to load it with filled the entire barrel and overflowed the muzzle. Dad explained the difference between grains (abbreviated "gr.") and grams . . . the guy was suitably embarassed.
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

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HankB wrote:OK, weather may have an effect - extreme cold may reduce velocity. Angle of entry . . . sure. But what in the world does the amount of light have to do with lethality unless it's so dark the soldier can't hit?
Everyone knows the brighter it is outside, the faster a bullet travels. ;-)

Seriously: good eye, Hank. I didn't catch that one.
HankB wrote:Not so funny - years ago, a fellow engineer asked my Dad about a small single shot muzzle-loading pistol he'd built from a kit - the "15 gr." of powder he was trying to load it with filled the entire barrel and overflowed the muzzle. Dad explained the difference between grains (abbreviated "gr.") and grams . . . the guy was suitably embarassed.
Sigh. I suppose with over 700 copies of that AP news article floating around now, the good news is that geometry will prevent any Darwin Award wannabe from being able to stuff 26 grams of powder into a .223 cartridge and give it a ride.

Back more or less on topic, one of the several research items that led me to order a POF .308 rifle was this aricle (it's a PDF) "http://www.pof-usa.com/articles/GW_POF-USA_P308_[1].pdf" in the April 2008 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. I worked with the gun in a training class in March, and wanted one right away. I was actually researching to try to find a reason not to buy one. I don't need a good .308 semi-auto, but I couldn't find any reason I shouldn't buy one. ;-)

I've heard the same complaint from some trainers and Vets the past couple of years, that the M16/M4 ain't the right firearm for the current job. I'm far from an expert; I'm just an observer and student.

What troubles me most is Maj. Thomas Henthorn's statement: "If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with." Combat ain't target shooting: see Paul Howe's comments (and read his book). A perfectly-placed .22 short will do the trick...under the perfect circumstances. But what's the average hit percentage of soldiers in the dust bowl? It sure ain't the "one shot, one kill" of a trained sniper.
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by Mike1951 »

Skiprr wrote:
HankB wrote:OK, weather may have an effect - extreme cold may reduce velocity. Angle of entry . . . sure. But what in the world does the amount of light have to do with lethality unless it's so dark the soldier can't hit?
Everyone knows the brighter it is outside, the faster a bullet travels. ;-)
That's because there's less dark to slow it down!
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Re: US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war (AP Article)

Post by Liberty »

Mike1951 wrote:
Skiprr wrote:
HankB wrote:OK, weather may have an effect - extreme cold may reduce velocity. Angle of entry . . . sure. But what in the world does the amount of light have to do with lethality unless it's so dark the soldier can't hit?
Everyone knows the brighter it is outside, the faster a bullet travels. ;-)
That's because there's less dark to slow it down!
Things are getting clearer for me.
I never understood why some folks were putting flashlights on their guns.
It's to give the bullets a little boost on their journey.
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