Recent changes to sign requirements and other

[dubya]

Howdy! I just had a buddy take his renewal class and he rattled off a lot of changes that surprised me that I wonder if the instructor might have been off base on. I searched the threads and did not see these.

Is there a thread or listing somewhere of recent CHANGES to Texas CHL guidelines?

A couple of his instructions I remember from my buddy's comments.

1) Any business can ban all handguns (guns) with ANY sign. A sign with a gun with a circle and line around it would suffice according to this instructor. Is this right?

2) Every EVERY entrance to something like a mall has to be posted. Find a store entrance without a sign and you are good to go.
This one sounds fishy to me.

3) If you have a gun locked in your car you have to notify anyone it is there befor they drive the car (such as a valet).

I will try to remember more from what he said was in his class. A lot surprised me a bit.

Hey. I have looked and looked and cannot find this. I read somewhere at one point there were some changes to TX CHL allowing carry of a baton/ASP (club) and knife recently. Any such changes you know of? My reason for asking this it would be nice to be able carry an expandable baton for less lethal use for attacking dogs/wild animals etc. Don't want to shoot that attacking pit bull but some defense would be nice.

I will try to go through the regs but it is hard to find changes. Thanks!
JW

[seamusTX]

There was a version of the CHL booklet that had the changes marked up. DPS withdrew it, but I can e-mail you a copy if you provide your e-mail address by private message. Someone put it on a web site, but I lost track of it.

1) Any business can ban all handguns (guns) with ANY sign. A sign with a gun with a circle and line around it would suffice according to this instructor. Is this right?

No. It must be a 30.06 or 51% sign, as before.

2) Every EVERY entrance to something like a mall has to be posted. Find a store entrance without a sign and you are good to go.

The law does not say that. Some people interpret the law that way, but I disagree.

This always leads to flame wars, such as they are around here.

3) If you have a gun locked in your car you have to notify anyone it is there befor they drive it (such as a valet).

There is no such law.

I will not comment on the advisability of leaving anything valuable in a car that is parked by a valet.

I read somewhere at one point there were some changes to TX CHL allowing carry of a baton/ASP (club) and knife recently.

Penal Code 46.02 was changed to allow people without a CHL to carry a concealed handgun, knife, or club in a vehicle; but I am not convinced that every police department got the memo.

Some people interpret the existing CHL law to allow a person with a CHL to carry a handgun and a knife or club on their person (not in a vehicle). I don't buy it.

- Jim

[dubya]

Thanks Jim, that helps a lot. I need to know for myself of course; and, I am concerned about misinformation that might be coming out of a class. You "confirmed" my thoughts that a lot of this information may be in question. The attendee is an experienced, knowledable person and I do not think he misheard.

I will send you my email (thought it was in my profile)' I would appreciate the change marked info.

If you or anyone else sees more info on batons it would be nice to know. Florida, as I bet most are aware, allows the carry of everything short of nuclear weapons it seems. :-)

Thanks,
JW

[seamusTX]

If the misinformation that you described is really being taught, that instructor needs a refresher course.

This forum does not have e-mail enabled, as it did with the previous version of the forum software.

- Jim

[Kerbouchard]

If the misinformation that you described is really being taught, that instructor needs a refresher course.

This forum does not have e-mail enabled, as it did with the previous version of the forum software.

- Jim

+1 You should speak to your instructor regarding the misinformation in his course. If he will not amend his course he needs to be reported to DPS.

Unfortunately, if you report him as teaching an inaccurate class, it could make your class not count. Hopefully, he will change his lesson plan.

My instructor was rather, shall we say, opinionated, and he had an interesting interpretation of the statutes. My wife will not be taking her class with him.

[TDDude]

2) Every EVERY entrance to something like a mall has to be posted. Find a store entrance without a sign and you are good to go.

The law does not say that. Some people interpret the law that way, but I disagree.
This always leads to flame wars, such as they are around here.

- Jim

No flame wars here but........
If I go in a large building such as a mall and it's not posted, but another entrance is posted, it is your (Mr. Seamus) opinion that everything is off limits? That makes no sense.
Clarify please.

[chewy555]

2) Every EVERY entrance to something like a mall has to be posted. Find a store entrance without a sign and you are good to go.

The law does not say that. Some people interpret the law that way, but I disagree.
This always leads to flame wars, such as they are around here.

- Jim

No flame wars here but........
If I go in a large building such as a mall and it's not posted, but another entrance is posted, it is your (Mr. Seamus) opinion that everything is off limits? That makes no sense.
Clarify please.

If you have seen the sign at another entrance then you have been given notice, so yes it is all off limits. Now if you have not seen the sign, then I think that it is ok. It will all come down to the LEO that you are dealing with if something happens.

[TDDude]

If you have seen the sign at another entrance then you have been given notice, so yes it is all off limits. Now if you have not seen the sign, then I think that it is ok. It will all come down to the LEO that you are dealing with if something happens.

That still can't be right. If the sign is posted outside, it can't be seen inside. It's like driving into town and a speed limit change is not posted, but it is posted over on that other street and yet I'm supposed to be clairvoyant.

Not flaming here, just looking for some sense. It's not like a sign is that expensive that they can't be created and posted.

[jmorris]

If you have seen the sign at another entrance then you have been given notice, so yes it is all off limits. Now if you have not seen the sign, then I think that it is ok. It will all come down to the LEO that you are dealing with if something happens.

That still can't be right. If the sign is posted outside, it can't be seen inside. It's like driving into town and a speed limit change is not posted, but it is posted over on that other street and yet I'm supposed to be clairvoyant.

Not flaming here, just looking for some sense. It's not like a sign is that expensive that they can't be created and posted.

If you have seen a 30.06 sign on any mall door then you have been informed that carry is not allowed in the mall. If there is no sign where you entered, and you are unaware of any sign, then until you see one or are told by a responsible person you cannot carry, you have not been informed.

If it's only on the mall doors, then (IMHO) it only covers the generic mall areas. If a store with seperate entrances is not posted then it would be legal to carry into that store.

But IANAL.

[seamusTX]

If I go in a large building such as a mall and it's not posted, but another entrance is posted, it is your (Mr. Seamus) opinion that everything is off limits?

I'm not going to repost the entire text of 30.06. It's here: http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm

This law does not contain the "knowingly, intentionally, or recklessly" language that most of the penal statues contain. It simply says that you commit an offense if you carry a handgun on premises where you have been given notice, and it defines notice as the 30.06 sign (among other methods). It does not say that the sign must be at the entrance or every entrance.

I certainly think you could be arrested if you were "made" and were still there when the police arrived. You might get the charge dropped because it is not reasonable to assume a single sign is visible to every visitor to a mall (for example). DAs and judges aren't always reasonable, though.

- Jim

[dubya]

I think the "spirit" of it must be considered; not every entrace can be marked in a big facility.

This original question was straight forward I believe. An instructor should not be teaching "to look for the unmarked entrace" in my opinion.
Gray areas are one thing. Discussing them is one thing.Teaching them in a CHL class is another. I sure worse information has been disseminated in classes but I am going to suggest the attendee call the gunshop owner (ex-LEO) where the class was taught out of.

[G Wagner]

Just for thought... If the 30.06 is not posted at every entrance, how would you know if the business/mall, decided to rescind the no weapon policy.

If the argument is that the area was once posted, and, in your mindset, would never change. You would believe that you could not carry, when in fact, the policy had changed and now allows for conceal carry by a license holder.

It would not responsible to expect you to visit the same entrance that you once observed a 30.06 on each visit to see if the policy would still in effect. The words are, would a reasonable and prudent person check each time; and, if entered through a unposted entrance would believe that the policy was still effective.

[k6gixx]

I was taught in my class 3/11 that EVERY entrance must be posted or else they cannot enforce the 30.06 . He did give the example of having a speed decrease sign going one way into town and not one going the other way into town.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Unfortunately, if you report him as teaching an inaccurate class, it could make your class not count."

Hmmmmmm .... Methinks it takes more than just "inaccruacy" - or a lot of guys (and girls) would be goners. Can you document an instructor's certification being revoked for or students having to re-do a class over "inaccuracy" ?

But, sadly, there is some real misinformation being spewed forth some places ...