witness attack

[waterpump1]

I am not sure if this is correct place for this but here we go Suppose you are carrying in your vehicle for self protection without CHL and witness someone being attacked if you were to get involved and used deadly force what would the legal situation be?

[Charles L. Cotton]

If the situation meets the requirement of Tex. Penal Code §9.33, then you can use deadly force to defend a third person.

Without a CHL, you would be violating TPC §46.02 when you step out of the car to engage the attacker. However, I can't imagine a LEO making a UCW arrest under those circumstances, nor can I see an asst. district attorney accepting the charges if they did. Further, you would have a legal defense to the UCW charge under TPC §9.22 "Necessity." (See below.)

Chas.

§ 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified
in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third
person if:

• (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably
  believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31
  or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against
  the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes
  to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and
  (2) the actor reasonably believes that his
  intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

§ 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

• (1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is
  immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
  (2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm
  clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of
  reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law
  proscribing the conduct; and
  (3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification
  claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

[BigBlueDodge]

I am not sure if this is correct place for this but here we go Suppose you are carrying in your vehicle for self protection without CHL and witness someone being attacked if you were to get involved and used deadly force what would the legal situation be?

My CHL instructor had a long discussion about Defense of a Third Person. His point was to never get involved unless you 100% know what is going on, and who is the bad guy. He gave an example of a Houston man who got shot. Evidentally this guy was beating another guy to no end, when a CHL bystander witness the event. The bystander told the man to stop, and when he didn't the CHL bystander shot the guy. As it turns out, the man was beating the other guy because he happened to catch him raping his daughter and was inflicting his revenge. The bystander did not know the full situation and killed the the wrong guy.

Let me put you in a situation. You go see a movie. As you are walking out to your car, you see two guys fighting. One has a knife. You don't know what is going on, but you feel that someone's life may be at stake. What do you do? How do you know who is the bad guy. Is it possible that the good guy wrestled the knife from the bad guy? Is it possible that the good guy already had a knife and was being attacked by the bad guy? Point is you don't know.

So, long story short, the advice I was given was to stay out of it, and alert the authorities because you don't fully understand what is going on. Don't feel just because you have a CHL that it is your responsibility. On bad decision could ruin two lives, the innocent guy you shot, and yours while you spend it in jail.

[KBCraig]

+1 on being a good witness and neutral third party. Off-duty cops have been killed by on-duty responders because of mix-ups about who the BG was. Don't assume you know who is who, based on your brief evaluation of something already in progress.

Is it a child abduction? Or is it a bratty kid being dragged to the car by their (resented) step-parent while screaming "You're not my daddy!"?

Is it someone about to deliver a fatal shot against a prone victim? Or is it a CHL holding an attacker at gunpoint while waiting for the police to respond?

In both schools and prisons, it's a truism: nobody sees the first punch, they only see the one who punches back.

You really don't want to guess wrong on this one.

[Wildscar]

I am not sure if this is correct place for this but here we go Suppose you are carrying in your vehicle for self protection without CHL and witness omeone being attacked if you were to get involved and used deadly force what would the legal situation be?

Imagine if you will

You drive in to a parking lot and notice a big burly biker type beating the tar fire out of some young teenager and you choose to "help" the teenager. You shoot and kill the biker type. Guess what, You would have just killed the Undercover LEO that was trying to arrest the snot nose punk that is a drug pusher who is resisting arrest. How are you going to feel at the end of that day.

Like others have said. Be 100% about the situation before you take action.

[waterpump1]

Thanks for everyone's input. I was in that situation the other night and i called 911 and waited for LEO. Lucky for the GG they got there quick. I work out of town and always in a different area and this time I was in a bad part of town.

[Charles L. Cotton]

So, long story short, the advice I was given was to stay out of it, and alert the authorities because you don't fully understand what is going on. Don't feel just because you have a CHL that it is your responsibility. On bad decision could ruin two lives, the innocent guy you shot, and yours while you spend it in jail.

I respectfully disagree with this advice as a blanket policy. This sounds like New Yorkers' attitudes. There certainly can be circumstances where the facts are too ambiguous to take action, but that's no rational basis to always say "let the authorities handle it." I would like to know the name of the people involved in shooting an alleged rapist. I would have thought that would have been all over the news, but I never heard a word. Plus, if someone decides to beat someone else in public, then they have chosen a very risky course.

Chas.

[Frost]

My CHL instructor had a long discussion about Defense of a Third Person. His point was to never get involved unless you 100% know what is going on...

Couldn't agree more.

and who is the bad guy. He gave an example of a Houston man who got shot. Evidentally this guy was beating another guy to no end, when a CHL bystander witness the event. The bystander told the man to stop, and when he didn't the CHL bystander shot the guy. As it turns out, the man was beating the other guy because he happened to catch him raping his daughter and was inflicting his revenge. The bystander did not know the full situation and killed the the wrong guy.

Bad example though, it sounds like he was continuing an assault on someone who was no longer a threat and perhaps incapacitated. There is no justification for that.

[casingpoint]

A prominent CHL badge clears up all the confusion about who needs shooting and who doesn't.

[longtooth]

worrms, Worms, WORMS.

[DoubleJ]

you going fishing??

[iratollah]

Even if your shooting were justified, likely you'd still have to deal with a civil suit. Unlikely that the party whom you tried to assist will be willing to help you with your legal costs.

I carry to protect my family, not someone else's. My first responsibility is be certain that my family is out of harm's way. It would have to be very special circumstances for me to do anything more than watch and report. I'm not a trained LEO and I'm not going to do their job. I'm sure we've all heard about the guy who tried to restrain the man who was beating the woman, only to get attacked by the woman because your were harming her husband.

[Liko81]

I am not sure if this is correct place for this but here we go Suppose you are carrying in your vehicle for self protection without CHL and witness omeone being attacked if you were to get involved and used deadly force what would the legal situation be?

Imagine if you will

You drive in to a parking lot and notice a big burly biker type beating the tar fire out of some young teenager and you choose to "help" the teenager. You shoot and kill the biker type. Guess what, You would have just killed the Undercover LEO that was trying to arrest the snot nose punk that is a drug pusher who is resisting arrest. How are you going to feel at the end of that day.

Like others have said. Be 100% about the situation before you take action.

Uh-uh. An undercover cop is not going to be "beating the tar fire out of some young teenager". A person engaged in a fistfight with a guy still on his feet, or administering a beatdown to a subdued or submissive victim, is committing assault. Period. And if it escalates to aggravated assault (assault with intent to kill or with a deadly weapon - thus, if the aggressor pulls a knife or starts smashing the guy's head against a wall or the ground repeatedly) you draw, and you can pull that trigger if drawing doesn't immediately stop the beating.

[rm9792]

You drive in to a parking lot and notice a big burly biker type beating the tar fire out of some young teenager and you choose to "help" the teenager. You shoot and kill the biker type. Guess what, You would have just killed the Undercover LEO that was trying to arrest the snot nose punk that is a drug pusher who is resisting arrest. How are you going to feel at the end of that day.

Like others have said. Be 100% about the situation before you take action.

Uh-uh. An undercover cop is not going to be "beating the tar fire out of some young teenager". A person engaged in a fistfight with a guy still on his feet, or administering a beatdown to a subdued or submissive victim, is committing assault. Period. And if it escalates to aggravated assault (assault with intent to kill or with a deadly weapon - thus, if the aggressor pulls a knife or starts smashing the guy's head against a wall or the ground repeatedly) you draw, and you can pull that trigger if drawing doesn't immediately stop the beating.[/quote]

While this may be true, what do you think the boys in blue will report about or do to someone who shot one of their own? It wont be pretty. "the officer was simply trying to gently cuff the suspect and this deranged citizen walked up and shot him."

[Liko81]

You drive in to a parking lot and notice a big burly biker type beating the tar fire out of some young teenager and you choose to "help" the teenager. You shoot and kill the biker type. Guess what, You would have just killed the Undercover LEO that was trying to arrest the snot nose punk that is a drug pusher who is resisting arrest. How are you going to feel at the end of that day.

Like others have said. Be 100% about the situation before you take action.

Uh-uh. An undercover cop is not going to be "beating the tar fire out of some young teenager". A person engaged in a fistfight with a guy still on his feet, or administering a beatdown to a subdued or submissive victim, is committing assault. Period. And if it escalates to aggravated assault (assault with intent to kill or with a deadly weapon - thus, if the aggressor pulls a knife or starts smashing the guy's head against a wall or the ground repeatedly) you draw, and you can pull that trigger if drawing doesn't immediately stop the beating.

While this may be true, what do you think the boys in blue will report about or do to someone who shot one of their own? It wont be pretty. "the officer was simply trying to gently cuff the suspect and this deranged citizen walked up and shot him."[/quote]

This is Texas, not Chicago.