The Macho Factor - A disturbing observation

[BigBlueDodge]

I will admit that I am very new to this CHL stuff. After many long years of inactivity, I finally decided to get my CHL. I've completed my coursework and am waiting on Austin to do their thing. Given the responsibility of holding a CHL, I've been fanatical about research and scouring the internet related to any/all matters of Texas CHL and I've discovered a disturbing trend. What I'm seeing is that the motivation for some getting a CHL is not primarily for protection. There is a certain amount of "macho'ness" that drives people to get their CHL. My first exposure to this was in my actual CHL class. The class was composed mainly of younger individuals (in their 20's). During introductions, the instructor asked everyone why they wanted a CHL, and the younger guys would say stuff like "becuase I just turned 21, or I just moved here and we weren't allowed to carry guns where I came from, etc". Few of them said they wanted their CHL for protection. Throughout the class I noticed that the younger guys questions were more centered around the equipment (which gun is the best, which ammo is the most destructive, what is the best brand of holster, where is best place to carry) and not so much around protection. During the breaks , they were proud of their handguns as they'd all group together and look at each others. The older folks questions were centered around the laws, and the responsibilities of owning a CHL. It was clear to me that a large portion of the young guys interest for getting their CHL was simply so they could carry their Desert Eagle or GLOCK on them. It was apparent that they got a kick out of the power of carrying a gun.

Well, that was my first experience to CHL, and I tried not to think much about it. Coming out of that class it was apparent to me that this is great responsibility of the CHL holder to become intimately aware of Texas CHL laws, so I read my "Texas Concealed Handgun Laws and Selected Statues" booklet two times, then set out on my quest of the internet to learn more. Even in forums like this I've read posts from people saying they carry two or three guns, with a couple of pocket knifes and one or two extra clips when they go out and I ask myself why? Our soldiers in Iraq don't carry that much stuff and they are in a war. What environment do we have in the US that could possible demand that much protection. From what I've read, a large majority of the reported CHL related disputes, the weapon is never fired, or only a couple of shots are fired. Given the high capacity magazines we have today, we can fit up to 14,15 shots in one magazine. I carry a 1911 that holds 7 shots, and I do not feel undergunned or feel a need to carry more than that. Again, my only explanation is that there is a power high that some get from carrying a gun, and the macho factor pops up. I find it rediculous now that people feel unsecure going to get mail from their mailbox now, where as 1 year ago they thought nothing of it. It's almost that owning a CHL make people more paranoid of their surroundings, even though their surroundings haven't changed. Magically, bad guys are now lurking everywhere.

I know that the majority of CHL owners are humble, law abiding citizens who get their CHL purely for personal protection only, but I have observed a disturbing number of individuals that appear to be getting a kick out of the power of carry a gun on them. It's almost like they are just waiting for a situation to occurr that they can use their firearm in, and this worries me. Because we all know that it only takes one or two incidents where a CHL holder screwed up to ruin it for the whole bunch.

At this point, no one will admit to themselves that they got their CHL because it made them feel powerful/macho to carry a gun. We are all convinced that we got it purely for personal protection. However, it doesn't take long to see the individuals who got it for power reasons, as their behaviors and actions will ultimately show.

[G.A. Heath]

I am a CHL holder who carries anywhere and anytime they can. I will admit that I am a bit of a coward though. If something bad happens I am going to try my best to get away from it, if I can't get away I will try being a good witness, failing at that I will fight if I have no other options. Since getting my CHL I have observed myself avoiding situations that before would not have bothered me prior to getting my CHL. Overall I suspect there are more CHL holders like me than not.

[Rex B]

You are right in your observation, many younger people don't perceive it like the older ones do.
When I took my class at age 54, I was the youngest one there except for my wife. it was almost entirely couples in their late 50s and 60s.
Almost all the questions concerned laws and situations. Everyone had nice equipment, not much discussion about it.

But I don't think those with the 'macho' attitude are affecting us so far. The statistics don't reflect anything. My gut feeling is most of them settle down a bit after they start carrying routinely and have time for the responsibility to sink in a bit.

[BigDan]

It is quite disturbing that some of the younger among us would feel this way. We can only hope that they are really taking it seriously and understand the responsibilities involved.

When I was 23, I had already been carrying at the night club I worked at for 2 years, so the nostalgia factor had worn off a long time prior. I admit, there was some sort of thrill involved at first, but my near-encounter with someone I had to escort out quickly brought to light the seriousness of carrying a weapon.

In some cases 21 is too young, but in others, it's not young enough. It's all about the individual. They had to pick some age of responsibility and I'd rather it be 21 than 18 for sure! I honestly feel it should be 23 in some cases because that's when I grew out of my college phase, but this can't be inflicted on everyone (of course, I feel the same about the age for marriage too).

I think it's less about Machismo and more about the thrill. I feel that once that thrill wears off within the first year, they'll wise-up. Here's to hoping...

[BigBlueDodge]

I do not want to make this discussion focused at a particular age group. It just so happened that the individuals in my class that exhibited this behavior were younger guys. That does not mean that if you are in your 20's you are not mature and responsibile. Alot of the post I've read from online forums were from older people, so this problem does across age groups. I won't deny that it may be weighted more towards one age group, but I'm quite sure it exists in all age groups.

Ultimately, machoism will lead to irrational decisions, and irrational decisions lead to innocent people getting killed. I myself have beeen disturbed by the ammount of apparent machoism I've personally seen with existing or potentional CHL holders.

[BigDan]

Agreed! It can happen at any age. Younger people are more prone, but even old farts can suffer from it! ;-]

[Mithras61]

Welcome to the forum. I've noted the attitude you describe and have generally attributed it to youth and machismo (much as you yourself have), and suspect that the majority of those who display this attitude in a "safe" environment do not do so in the rest of their activities. Of course, this is just my opinion formed by observing groups of teenagers, YMMV.

I'd like to try and address some of the questions you have asked.

Even in forums like this I've read posts from people saying they carry two or three guns, with a couple of pocket knifes and one or two extra clips when they go out and I ask myself why? Our soldiers in Iraq don't carry that much stuff and they are in a war. What environment do we have in the US that could possible demand that much protection. From what I've read, a large majority of the reported CHL related disputes, the weapon is never fired, or only a couple of shots are fired. Given the high capacity magazines we have today, we can fit up to 14,15 shots in one magazine. I carry a 1911 that holds 7 shots, and I do not feel undergunned or feel a need to carry more than that.

Magazine failure. It happens, and it would truly suck to have it happen just when you need that gun most. Having one or two extra magazines isn't as often for the extra rounds so much as for the extra pre-loaded magazines in the event of a failure.

I find it rediculous now that people feel unsecure going to get mail from their mailbox now, where as 1 year ago they thought nothing of it. It's almost that owning a CHL make people more paranoid of their surroundings, even though their surroundings haven't changed. Magically, bad guys are now lurking everywhere.

It isn't paranoid. It's the recognition that bad things happen in the most unexpected of circumstances (just ask Venus Pax about her dog-walking incident). Many folks here have a signature that reads "Carry 24/7 or guess right." Are you really that good at prognostications that you know in advance when you'll need your firearm? If you are, why do you need a CHL?

I know that the majority of CHL owners are humble, law abiding citizens who get their CHL purely for personal protection only, but I have observed a disturbing number of individuals that appear to be getting a kick out of the power of carry a gun on them. It's almost like they are just waiting for a situation to occurr that they can use their firearm in, and this worries me. Because we all know that it only takes one or two incidents where a CHL holder screwed up to ruin it for the whole bunch.

Quite so. As I said above, my opinion (for what its worth) is that the majority of this is bravado and they will usually act sensibly when the time comes to put their money where their mouth is.

At this point, no one will admit to themselves that they got their CHL because it made them feel powerful/macho to carry a gun. We are all convinced that we got it purely for personal protection. However, it doesn't take long to see the individuals who got it for power reasons, as their behaviors and actions will ultimately show.

Again, an accurate assessment. If you read through most of the scenarios on this board, you'll see that the majority of folks here feel that we are only armed to protect ourselvesand those close or important to us, and that we aren't special law enforcement. A few folks are willing to go beyond that (or at least claim to be so willing) and I suppose that's a choice that they may have to make at some point in time. I hope not, just as I hope to never need my firearms. I'm just unwilling to potentially risk my life based on the hope that I guessed right today.

[agbullet2k1]

During introductions, the instructor asked everyone why they wanted a CHL, and the younger guys would say stuff like "becuase I just turned 21, or I just moved here and we weren't allowed to carry guns where I came from, etc". Few of them said they wanted their CHL for protection.

Look at the question from another angle though. Ask a teenager why they're getting their DL and they'll say "because I'm old enough now." That doesn't necessarily mean that the underlying purpose isn't to go from point A to B in some other way than walking. To them, it may be a foregone conclusion that they will get their permit, and they were just waiting until they legally could. Doesn't mean they don't have defense in their minds. They could have interpretted the question as "why get the CHL now?"

Throughout the class I noticed that the younger guys questions were more centered around the equipment (which gun is the best, which ammo is the most destructive, what is the best brand of holster, where is best place to carry) and not so much around protection.

Again, the car analogy. Would you buy your first car without seeking your parents' advice or researching different makers? If you are just getting into the world of guns, why not ask more experienced shooters what to get? Asking about calibers and magazine capacity is no different than asking about engine size and gas mileage. More senior folks grew up in a different culture, where guns were not "evil," so common knowledge is probably more common to them. I'd be glad that the younger ones were caring enough to equip themselves well instead of just getting the cheapest stuff they could find.

During the breaks , they were proud of their handguns as they'd all group together and look at each others.

I'm sure older folks do this too.

It was clear to me that a large portion of the young guys interest for getting their CHL was simply so they could carry their Desert Eagle or GLOCK on them. It was apparent that they got a kick out of the power of carrying a gun.

You go with what you know, and sadly, most video games use Glock and Desery Eagle because the royalties are cheaper. No malice there, just ignorance.

Even in forums like this I've read posts from people saying they carry two or three guns, with a couple of pocket knifes and one or two extra clips when they go out and I ask myself why?

Allow me to introduce you to Mr. Murphy, the bringer of all things bad and improbable. You'd probably carry multiple mags if you've ever had one fail on you. I only carried one mag until I had the bottom fall out of one at the range, dumping a full load on the floor. Then again, I'm one of those guys that never lets his gas tank get below half during hurricane season.

Our soldiers in Iraq don't carry that much stuff and they are in a war.

My brother-in-law said he carried about 30 pounds of gear, not including kevlar, food, and water.

I carry a 1911 that holds 7 shots, and I do not feel undergunned or feel a need to carry more than that.

If you're satisfied that the one mag will never fail, you are braver than me.

I find it rediculous now that people feel unsecure going to get mail from their mailbox now

Stuff happens. Never when you expect though.

I know that the majority of CHL owners are humble, law abiding citizens

Thank ya

It's almost like they are just waiting for a situation to occurr that they can use their firearm in, and this worries me.

I don't doubt it. Abuse of power and responsibility is in human nature. That's why it's up to us to police ourselves, in a way. I've been corrected before by my dad for being flippant with gun safety, and the back of my head definitely learned the lesson. If you ever see or hear of unsafe practice, don't be afraid to point it out, or else the odds are someone will get hurt.

Because we all know that it only takes one or two incidents where a CHL holder screwed up to ruin it for the whole bunch.

Amen

At this point, no one will admit to themselves that they got their CHL because it made them feel powerful/macho to carry a gun. We are all convinced that we got it purely for personal protection. However, it doesn't take long to see the individuals who got it for power reasons, as their behaviors and actions will ultimately show.

I got mine at 21 and 3 months for several reasons, in order:
1)On the road a lot back and forth to school, mostly at night.
2)I figured "why not?" (macho reason, but notice it's not at the top)
3)Did not live in a glamorous area of town at school.
4)My dad was getting his, and they gave a discount if 2 people signed up.

The gun on the other hand, I definitely purchased for macho reasons. No excuses there, just being practical. Why bring a Pinto to a drag race when you could have brought a Vette? Take every advantage you can get/afford. To date, it has harmed no one, and I pray it never has to. Few people I know know it exists. My immediate family knows, as well as a few fellow carriers, but really, most wouldn't care, so why bother? Some people have old mustangs in the garage that they never show or drive. Why? Because they like them, and that's there business.

[casingpoint]

I find it ridiculous now that people feel insecure going to get mail from their mailbox now, where as 1 year ago they thought nothing of it.

No macho here. I thought nothing of going to the mailbox until Hurricanes Katrina and Rita changed the social landscape in South Louisiana. A year ago, I thought I was going to have to shoot a man near my mailbox. Fortunately, when he first saw me, I was walking down my driveway and just happened to be racking the slide on a nine mm. He kept his car moving on. After that, they took their dope dealing somewhere else. But I keep a gun at the ready 24/7. Still haven't caught up to the burglars. One day, one night.....

p.s., I don't have a CHL. Got a cell phone instead. Best concealed weapon on the market. Just dial 911, and here come some real pros. It ain't no macho thing. Macho will get you hurt. Or worse, prosecuted.

[shootthesheet]

Don't judge to quickly. Just because they didn't ask the questions you thought they should, don't think for a second they don't know their stuff. You and I don't know them and cannot say how much they do or do not know. It is possable they knew more than any of the older people in there. I have been among these younger people enough to know I cannot say they aren't serious about what they do. Even if it doesn't seem like it all the time. And so you know, I knew the relevant laws before I took the class. I did it by reading and learning the book and asking questions and doing research on the internet. It is possible they knew they could have questions answered later as they thought of them as did I. I doubt some of the older people realized that or even knew how.

Why carry multiple guns and magazines? Malfunctions. Extended shootouts with more than one aggressor. To arm a non-CHL holder friend if necessary. There are many reasons. Spare mags are a must for malfunctions which happen a lot when people are in a stressful situation. BUGs are for the same reason. One gun goes down, grab another. And would you imagine I carry a self-loading rifle with multiple standard cap mags of 30 rounds with me in my vehicle most of the time. That isn't paranoid, that is hoping I will have better weapons than my attacker/s if it ever comes to it. As far as paranoia and thinking someone is out to get us. No, it has nothing to do with paranoia. It has to do with being ready and getting as much of a jump on an aggressor as possible. We "up" our awareness and remain armed and ready because we don't have buddies with M-16s around us like soldiers do. We have "us" and nothing else. We know we cannot expect a LEO to save us as all CHL holders should understand. We know that if we are caught off guard we might get into a situation where we arm a criminal with the same gun we are trying to defend ourselves and other innocents with. I say if a CHL holder is willing to carry a load of guns and ammo then what business is it of mine. It doesn't hurt me at all.

[G.A. Heath]

I find it ridiculous now that people feel insecure going to get mail from their mailbox now, where as 1 year ago they thought nothing of it.

No macho here. I thought nothing of going to the mailbox until Hurricanes Katrina and Rita changed the social landscape in South Louisiana. A year ago, I thought I was going to have to shoot a man near my mailbox. Fortunately, when he first saw me, I was walking down my driveway and just happened to be racking the slide on a nine mm. He kept his car moving on. After that, they took their dope dealing somewhere else. But I keep a gun at the ready 24/7. Still haven't caught up to the burglars. One day, one night.....

p.s., I don't have a CHL. Got a cell phone instead. Best concealed weapon on the market. Just dial 911, and here come some real pros. It ain't no macho thing. Macho will get you hurt. Or worse, prosecuted.

First off why would you feel the need to possibly shoot someone who is just near your mail box? where you or your property in danger? Secondly, why were you "racking the slide", your gun should have been ready prior to going to engage a threat. Finally a 911 call has a built in delay between use and response, during which you can be seriously injured or killed. Your the only person you can count on being there when you need someone to protect you, and I would rather be prepared than not (think spare tire, smoke detectors, fire extinguisher, health insurance, ect.).

[KBCraig]

"Because I can" is a perfectly legitimate reason to get a CHL.

I don't read any machismo into that at all.

[iratollah]

There may be some machismo factor. Dad would only let me own long guns, never a handgun. When I turned 21 I went out and bought the biggest handgun I could afford, a .357 Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with a 6.5" barrel. This was before CHL, but when I'd take late night walks I'd wear it in a vertical shoulder holster.

[Liberty]

"Because I can" is a perfectly legitimate reason to get a CHL.

I don't read any machismo into that at all.

I found the OP sorta funny, because the idea of daily protection was only one of several reasons that I got got my CHL. I got my CHL because I can. There are many folks that feel and believe that the right to be able to protect onesself is a go given right. The ability to carry is a not only a right that we have, but I feel if folks don't exercise that right we could lose it. It is an important statement that congress critters and other politicians understand well. quarter million law abiding citizens armed and willing to go the extra mile exercise their rights. makes Politicians pay attention.

I had to laugh at the comment that those who carry 15 round 9mm hand guns are the macho show offs, while the 1911ers are the quiet mature good guys.

Not to start a caliber war (heh heh), but I've found that 1911s are generally more of a show off piece. They are pretty and folks love showing them off. We had a thread going on here about showing off your 1911. I have never seen a thread "Show off your 9MM Glock" some of us just prefer guns that we can count on going off every time, and are reasonable enough to take to the range on a regular basis.

My carry gun is a stainless Ruger P95. New it cost $363. a modest gun that while performs admirably, i find surprising that anyone would classify as macho because it can hold 16 rounds. It cost me about $30 bucks to put 100 rounds through it a couple times each month. My 9mm have gone off every single time I've pulled the trigger. It was important to me to own guns that are large capacity, Because it irritates the gun banners, I take great pride that my handguns are illegal in California. A hi capacity 9mm hand gun is not my choice because of machoism. There are many reasons but the main reason is that I really dislike 1911s. but I would never make character judgments because folks happen to choose them.

I carry sometimes a couple mags with me because It balances my belt and helps keep my pants from falling down lopsided. Wouldn't be a pretty sight. I am 56.