Not your typical dog question

[pt145ss]

I know there are a lot of threads about using a firearm to protect ones self from a dog. My story is a little different. My wife and were walking the dogs this evening (a German shepherd and a Siberian husky…the shepherd is 12 months old and still very much a pup). Both dogs were on leashes and we were walking our normal route. We rounded a corner and all of a sudden two dogs (not ours) began barking from behind the fence on the corner lot. At first we did not think much of it and kept walking. That’s when the dogs from behind the fence began jumping. Not just jumping (and I am not exaggerating here)…jumping and hanging on top of the 6 foot privacy fence. We are talking front legs completely over the fence. Both dogs were German Shepherds and were quite large (much larger then our pup) and intimidating.

I was fearful enough to the point where I pulled my shirt up and put my hand on the pistol (yes…I was intentionally failing to conceal) walking sideways and backwards so i could keep my eye on them. I had made my mind up at that point, that if those dogs came over the fence I was going to draw and shoot. I pulled my shirt up shirt up and prepared myself because I knew that it would have only taken a second or two for those dogs to get to us as we were only across the street.

Here is where my story is a little different. The guy that lives at that house is a Travis County Sheriff deputy…I see his patrol car there all the time (and it was there this evening). I have not paid close enough attention to see if the car is marked K9 or not.

These are my questions. If the dogs came over the fence and towards us, would I have been justified to shoot?…I was definitely fearful and I know those dogs could have done great bodily harm. Does the answer to the first question change…IF…the dogs are in fact K9? Is there a way to find out if they are K9? If so, is this something I could report to the sheriffs department?

[KC5AV]

It might not be a bad idea just to go knock on the guys door, and say howdy. Ask him about the dogs, and tell him you were a little bit concerned about them trying to come over the fence.

[HerbM]

It might not be a bad idea just to go knock on the guys door, and say howdy. Ask him about the dogs, and tell him you were a little bit concerned about them trying to come over the fence.

That seems like very good advice...maybe just meeting the dogs with their owner if they are well trained will calm them.

My thought when the OP said he would shoot as soon as the dogs came over the fence is "What if they just want to play?"

Ok, if you are really in fear of your life or great bodily harm you are likely justified in shooting but expect to have to PROVE it, or at least convince the DA, or juries that this is a reasonable response.

Also, expect to get hassled a LOT if you shoot a K9 dog -- you will have both a cop and a VERY loyal owner who loves his dog on your case and he will still be your neighbor for along time.

As to "shooting a K9", if he isn't working you (and your lawyer) should be able to easily make the case that he was "not on duty" -- and then you will still have to show that he was an imminent threat.

It probably won't be as difficult as if you shoot a berserk police officer, but it will get real interesting for a while.....

[pt145ss]

My thought when the OP said he would shoot as soon as the dogs came over the fence is "What if they just want to play?"

You make the incident sound trivial when the fact is it was not. I love dogs…especially big breed dogs and I normally do not get intimidated by big dogs barking. Having owned a Shepherd or two I can hear the difference in their bark from…ohhh I wanna play…and you are inside my comfort zone and I mean business. These dogs meant business.

My shepherd is fairly well trained and is protective. However, he does not bark at passersby…he sits and watches intently...that is unless you get inside his comfort zone...then the barking begins. If you come to my house…and I do not formally introduce him to you…he will not allow you past the foyer.

The point is, I do not intimidate easily and I just happen to know a thing or two about this particular breed. The incident was not trivial in nature. The barking and behavior was agressive.

[flintknapper]

My thought when the OP said he would shoot as soon as the dogs came over the fence is "What if they just want to play?"

You make the incident sound trivial when the fact is it was not. I love dogs…especially big breed dogs and I normally do not get intimidated by big dogs barking. Having owned a Shepherd or two I can hear the difference in their bark from…ohhh I wanna play…and you are inside my comfort zone and I mean business. These dogs meant business.

My shepherd is fairly well trained and is protective. However, he does not bark at passersby…he sits and watches intently...that is unless you get inside his comfort zone...then the barking begins. If you come to my house…and I do not formally introduce him to you…he will not allow you past the foyer.

The point is, I do not intimidate easily and I just happen to know a thing or two about this particular breed. The incident was not trivial in nature. The barking and behavior was agressive.

O.K. we got your point.

Now, what do you intend to do about it?

In the future, to knowingly/purposely walk past dogs that may present you a problem... is to invite trouble.

Do you intend to talk to the owner? I would encourage you to do so...since that would be a much better remedy than simply finding out the legalities/ramifications of shooting the animals.

Happily, this unfortunate event is in the past and nothing tragic occurred. To prevent this from happening again, I think a visit to your neighbor is in order. If he is a reasonable man....he will accept your concerns in the spirit in which they were given. If not, then he has been warned.

[HerbM]

My thought when the OP said he would shoot as soon as the dogs came over the fence is "What if they just want to play?"

You make the incident sound trivial when the fact is it was not. ... These dogs meant business.
...
The point is, I do not intimidate easily and I just happen to know a thing or two about this particular breed. The incident was not trivial in nature. The barking and behavior was agressive.

Ok, we now get it. But think about what you wrote and the entire content of my message where it is clear I took you seriously.

I did NOT make it sound trivial; that was my actual reaction to what you wrote, if it sounds like it was being trivialized that was the effect of your original message, and to be clear you might have included (some of) the missing detail you offered in the response above. Were we talking in person you would have made this clear by your voice and nonverbals but in email/forum communication we can't hear or see that.

The meaning of your communication is the response you elicit -- not necessarily the meaning you intend or expect.

There is still a difference perhaps between 'aggressive' and deadly -- if you had shot that dog before he did any damage you might have been facing large expenses and legal troubles -- you certainly would have a very angry cop for a neighbor.

Perhaps some pepper spray (fog is my favorite) for this -- will give you an intermediate response between nothing and shooting.

Talking to the neighbor seems a wise idea -- no need to mention how close you came to shooting nor that you have a CHL though.

Good luck and stay safe.

[srothstein]

I have to second the advice to talk to the owner. One of my biggest complaints with my job is people who call the police instead of just talking with the neighbor. Our sense of community is dying.

Now, as for the dogs and the specific incident, IMO you would have been justified in shooting the dogs if the came over the fence and ran towards you. I am a firm believer, from my work, that if it has teeth it will bite. It may not bite this time, but it will eventually. So, I do not allow dogs to come close enough to bite when i can avoid it. If a dog were barking aggressively and charging at me, I am going to be shooting it or doing my best to do so. And I do not care if it is a trained police K-9, a stray shepherd, a soft mouth lab retriever, or a chihuahua.

As a side note, I know a few K-9's that have excellent records. They have bitten more cops than bad guys. I knew one handler in the Army that ha d been bitten by his own dog 4 times. The fact that it is a police K-9 convinces me even more quickly to shoot. I know they will bite.

[KBCraig]

As a side note, I know a few K-9's that have excellent records. They have bitten more cops than bad guys. I knew one handler in the Army that ha d been bitten by his own dog 4 times. The fact that it is a police K-9 convinces me even more quickly to shoot. I know they will bite.

And in the "furball" of a fight, they're going to bite everything that moves. Our local news has had several reports of K-9 and regular patrol officers piling on and trying to subdue the same suspect, and sometimes the dog bit everyone except the arrestee.

[HerbM]

As a side note, I know a few K-9's that have excellent records. They have bitten more cops than bad guys. I knew one handler in the Army that ha d been bitten by his own dog 4 times. The fact that it is a police K-9 convinces me even more quickly to shoot. I know they will bite.

And in the "furball" of a fight, they're going to bite everything that moves. Our local news has had several reports of K-9 and regular patrol officers piling on and trying to subdue the same suspect, and sometimes the dog bit everyone except the arrestee.

And being a K9 they may know what a gun is and bite that (hand) first and hardest.

If you are attacked and in legitimate fear of your life or a love one you are certainly doing the right thing to Stop the Attack.

[MoJo]

By Texas law, a K9 IS a police officer the punishment for killing/injuring a K9 is one level below a human officer. Go talk to the deputy or pick a new route to walk your dogs. If the dog or dogs are K9s shooting one could wind up costing you dearly.

[pt145ss]

O.K. we got your point.

Now, what do you intend to do about it?

In the future, to knowingly/purposely walk past dogs that may present you a problem... is to invite trouble.

Do you intend to talk to the owner? I would encourage you to do so...since that would be a much better remedy than simply finding out the legalities/ramifications of shooting the animals.

Happily, this unfortunate event is in the past and nothing tragic occurred. To prevent this from happening again, I think a visit to your neighbor is in order. If he is a reasonable man....he will accept your concerns in the spirit in which they were given. If not, then he has been warned.

My wife and I have walked pass that house a hundred times and never had an issue until last night. In fact, we only thought one dog lived there. In the past, the one dog would bark a bit (not as aggressively as last night) and run up and down the fence line…not a big deal. Last night there were two dogs. I wonder if he is dog sitting or something. Anyway, as an after thought, I think there might have been some sort of pack animal behavior going on and that is why things were so different last night. Either way, my wife and I already talked about changing our route to avoid his house.

I do plan on talking to him. I was asking the question about being justified just to assure myself that I was making clear decisions during a time that was quite intense. Particularly because I had already made my mind up that I was going to shoot if they made it over and came at us. From the responses, I feel confident that I would have been justified and I was still thinking clearly in the middle of all the adrenalin.

As for my other questions…even though I plan on talking to him…I would like to file a formal complaint. The reason being is that...heaven forbid…next time it is a kid riding past on his/her bike and the dogs go ballistic again…but this time it does not end so well. If there is not a history of unprovoked aggression on record, the owner may not be held as responsible as he should be because there was no prior history. This is why I was asking how do I know if they are K9 or just a personal pet. If K9, I might go to the Travis County…if a personal pet, I would file a report with our local PD (we do not live in Travis County).

[HerbM]

...
I was asking the question about being justified just to assure myself that I was making clear decisions during a time that was quite intense.

Only you really know this -- and how others (us, a DA, jury etc) will interpret it will have a LOT to do with what you (and your wife) say and don't say after the loud noises stop.

Personally, I think you were have been justified in shooting the dog(s) if he came over the fence and came at you, or bit your dog. Maybe if he just charged you dog but that isn't as clear. I think if I shoot the dog charging in this case (I have my dog on a leash) then the dog is definitely attacking me and/or my wife.

I also think that if you shoot you shouldn't say much more at the scene than "I was in fear of my life and the life of my wife, and had to stop the vicious attack. I will speak with my attorney now before making a full statement."

Particularly because I had already made my mind up that I was going to shoot if they made it over and came at us. From the responses, I feel confident that I would have been justified and I was still thinking clearly in the middle of all the adrenalin.

I think this is very likely good -- as much as we worry about shooting to soon, the reality is that most people will start to use deadly force later than prudence and safety would recommend.

If you have a potentially life threatening situation that is static enough that you have time to think and makes plans like this one then having decision that if the situation escalates or worsens to some predictable point X, or Y, or Z then I will shoot immediately is a good method.

Such points can be physical distance (coupled with existing or other indicators) in some cases, or specific actions or events that you can predict might further threaten you.

We all do this when reviewing generic situations, so doing it closer to the real situation is good -- IF you have the time and attention to devote to this task.

As for my other questions…even though I plan on talking to him…I would like to file a formal complaint.

You must decide. It's problematic. If you talk to him and get good results -- and then report him too, or vice versa, the many ways this goes worse for you living in the neighborhood are pretty easy to guess.

And yet, police reports are "good things" when dangerous situations are present (not the question in another thread where someone was going to call the police for a simple, inadvertent failure to conceal).

What will you report? A dog barking? Seriously I am NOT trying to trivialize your legitimate concern but only pointing out how it MIGHT sound if you don't word it just right.

It might be a good idea to take you original report (here) and write it out with only the "facts" you would present (eliminating all discussion of your dogs except those that would be directly relevant). Covering the key points you would SAY if you visit your neighbor, or report if you file -- they would be similar (same facts) but might have some differences of presentation order or words chosen.

Read through it later; have your wife read through it etc.

People get emotional about their dogs -- some love them as much as their children.

[KC5AV]

I think your comments about pack behavior might be exactly right. In that light, it's also possible that the other dogs were just reacting to the presence of yours. I think the best course of action would be to speak with the neighbor first, before any thoughts of filing complaints. If the meeting goes well, it might not be necessary to proceed any further. If he blows you off, then do what you need to do.

In any event, it's probably not a bad idea to find a different way to go when you're out walking. The best way to avoid a bad situation is to not be there when it happens.

[pt145ss]

By Texas law, a K9 IS a police officer the punishment for killing/injuring a K9 is one level below a human officer. Go talk to the deputy or pick a new route to walk your dogs. If the dog or dogs are K9s shooting one could wind up costing you dearly.

I can understand this if the dog is acting in the line of duty and or at the command of his handler and a perp shoots the dog. But, if they are K9, it is apparent that they are not on duty and they were not under the control of the handler. If a human officer went crazy while off duty in say a road rage incident or something (and we have seen this) then an average citizen would be justified in responding accordingly...being a LEO has little or no bearing on the situation. There should be no difference with a K9 officer.

[amber]

By Texas law, a K9 IS a police officer the punishment for killing/injuring a K9 is one level below a human officer. Go talk to the deputy or pick a new route to walk your dogs. If the dog or dogs are K9s shooting one could wind up costing you dearly.

That's crazy! If an off duty cop robs a bank and the guard shoots him, will the guard get the death penalty for shooting a cop?