Matching local police caliber?

[pbwalker]

I've read a few articles that state "A choice often advocated for selecting the correct stopping power in CCW training classes is to select to use the exact same type of bullets (FMJ or hollow point), in the exact same caliber that are used by the local police, to avoid being accused of overreacting during any self defense post-incident trial". It relates directly to the Harold Fish incident.

Any validity to this? Or is it just more garbage?

[Charles L. Cotton]

I do not believe this is an issue in Texas. Perhaps it is in some New England States, but I've never heard of ammo selection being a real issue in a Texas case.

That said, if one were ever asked why they cost particular ammo, saying "because that's what the police use" is a pretty good answer. I just don't think you're likely to hear that question in Texas or elsewhere in the south.

Chas.

[Liberty]

I do not believe this is an issue in Texas. Perhaps it is in some New England States, but I've never heard of ammo selection being a real issue in a Texas case.

That said, if one were ever asked why they cost particular ammo, saying "because that's what the police use" is a pretty good answer. I just don't think you're likely to hear that question in Texas or elsewhere in the south.

Chas.

I think some of us in Texas are still in shock that the caliber issue was used against Harold Fish in Arizona, which has until then had been considered a gun friendly state. I guess it shows what can happen when you let Californians move in. Several weeks ago I drove pass one very small town in Arizona that actually had a sign (hand drawn) at the city limits that expressed, "No Californians Allowed".

[Excaliber]

I've read a few articles that state "A choice often advocated for selecting the correct stopping power in CCW training classes is to select to use the exact same type of bullets (FMJ or hollow point), in the exact same caliber that are used by the local police, to avoid being accused of overreacting during any self defense post-incident trial". It relates directly to the Harold Fish incident.

I'm not an attorney and don't pretend to give legal advice, but here's my take from the Harold Fish incident.

Here's a quick snapshot of what that case entailed:

http://www.snubnose.info/wordpress/rkba ... n-arizona/

The writer's opinions about how Mr. Fish's training worked against him, and he should have shot to wound his assailant, are not relevant. They're clearly not sound tactical options, and Mr. Fish didn't use them. The factual details are useful to give you an idea of the circumstances that came before the court.

In that case Mr. Fish fired multiple rounds into a reportedly mentally disturbed and clearly hostile charging attacker who screamed death threats but was not armed with a deadly weapon. The prosecution contended that Mr. Fish's use of full power 10MM ammunition, which is not widely issued by police departments, was an indication of premeditated homicidal intent. Mr. Fish testified that he carried that round for defense against the types of dangerous wild animals that inhabit the wilderness area the incident occurred in, and used it in self defense because that's what he had with him when the incident occurred.

There's a lot more to the story, and the prosecution's assertion was a pretty long stretch in my book, but think about how this might play in front of a jury of housewives and office workers who are not familiar with and quite possibly afraid of weapons. Mr. Fish was convicted of second degree murder. He is now seeking a new trial.

Matching the issued ammo of your local PD might seem like a good idea because it makes it easy to counter the Fish prosecutor's homicidal intent argument, but then what happens if your incident occurs in another jurisdiction that uses different ammo?

The answer is: not much. There is no legal requirement to use any particular ammunition in Texas (although that's not true everywhere - e.g., NJ requires that civilians carry only solid point ammo), and you could easily counter the argument the prosecution used in Mr. Fish's case by showing that the ammunition you carry is identical or functionally similar to that routinely issued to large numbers of police officers in multiple jurisdictions, preferably in your state. In Texas, that covers most of the best hollow point rounds in 9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W, and .45, with less common usage of .38 and .357 these days.

Mr. Fish's case could serve as a warning that carrying an S&W .500 Magnum loaded with super duper hyper exploding incendiary shatter shells (or anything else not routinely used in law enforcement) might not be a good idea because the unusual choice of ammo could be raised in a potentially damaging way, and you won't be in need of any more potentially damaging issues if you're going before the courts in a criminal case. Since there's no functional reason to place yourself in that position, and the issue has already been raised to the detriment of a defender, even with no binding precedent set, it's probably not a good idea.

[Pinkycatcher]

I'd like to see someone conceal carry a 500 S&W with super-duper double jagged ridged hollow-point teflon coated, exploding incendiary tracer rounds in the high capacity double stacked magazine which extends below the weapon.......Without it pulling your pants down

[G.A. Heath]

I'd like to see someone conceal carry a 500 S&W with super-duper double jagged ridged hollow-point teflon coated, exploding incendiary tracer rounds in the high capacity double stacked magazine which extends below the weapon.......Without it pulling your pants down

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ok, enough being silly, time to get on topic with my thoughts on this: read Mr. Cottons post. I think he would know a thing or two about the law, but since your not paying him for his opinion it will most likely mean nothing until you do. My thoughts which mean less than nothing in a legal aspect are: Texas is a great state: cartridge selection will play less of a role than issues like location (in your bedroom or theirs), what happened prior to the event (one party threatening the other's life), who and what witnessed the event(s), and your relationship/standing in the community (known drug dealer in opposition to a charity fund raising chair person).

[Pinkycatcher]

O I did, and caliber size matching the local police caliber is stupid and something I would never take into account around here, I will carry what I feel safe with, if the lowest caliber is .44 magnum so be it, if that means I feel the need to have 17+1 9mm rounds so be it. If I feel to be safe I have the need for a 600 nitro express, then well...Yah I don't feel safe on the same range as one of those.

[Liberty]

One of the things that bugs me is that there are some ammo loads that aren't locally available for civilian use. The "Police Only" ammo is available online but shipping charges are a killer.

[Liko81]

One of the things that bugs me is that there are some ammo loads that aren't locally available for civilian use. The "Police Only" ammo is available online but shipping charges are a killer.

You can usually buy "police-issue" at gun shows too. 'Course, the Dallas PD just issues Speer Gold Dots, which are only hard to find cause the local Academy stores doesn't sell them; you have to pay gun store premiums or stock up once a month at the shows.

As to the original question, it's a philosophy made popular by Massad Ayoob, for just the reason Fish was convicted. The use of "exotic" ammunition (meaning it's not .22LR, .380, .38Sp, 9mm, .40S&W, or .45; even .357Sig's on the bubble though it's used by many agencies) tends to prompt many questions about why. Most "exotic" ammunition is of higher power than current police rounds, which prosecutors may be able to use against you. In addition, the uneducated hear "Magnum" and equate it with Dirty Harry even though .357Mag is a common caliber for concealed revolvers, and you can bet a prosecutor eager for a conviction will push that buzzword at every opportunity, and pull out charts showing how a .357Mag round has almost double the muzzle energy of police-issue autoloader rounds.

Now, as a result of Harold Fish, Arizona has since passed a law stating that (I paraphrase in TPC-style language) when determining whether an actor was justified in using deadly force, a trier of fact may not consider the type or caliber of the actor's weapon. Basically it states that deadly force is deadly force, and justification does not depend on "how deadly" the force was. If the person would have been justified in shooting their assailant with a 9mm, they cannot be found culpable if they used a .44 Magnum instead.

I would also push for a provision stating that the trier of fact may not consider the number of shots fired, except in circumstances where it can be shown that the actor continued firing after the threat had stopped. If you would have been justified firing one shot, you are justified in firing two or three or even five as long as your assailant was still a threat to you. If evidence shows you then stood over the BG and emptied your magazine, get your orange jumpsuit, but ten rounds in the door jamb and a BG on the floor between you and the door is clear-cut self-defense.

I wonder what the new Arizona law will do to the pre-trial motions; any defense lawyer worth his salt will use the new law to fight tooth and nail to suppress the gun from being introduced as evidence if it is an easily-recognizable weapon such as a Smith Model 29 (Dirty Harry), or a very scary-looking weapon like a "tac shottie" or AK. They're all valid weapons, but their simply being shown in court prejudices the jury, and no amount of jury instruction will undo that.

[Excaliber]

O I did, and caliber size matching the local police caliber is stupid and something I would never take into account around here,

Everyone makes his own decisions and lives with the consequences.

The results create history, and everyone's experience is valuable in some way.

Those who make out well serve as good examples the rest of us can follow.

Those who don't provide service as a warning to others, and further reason to follow those good examples.

[bdickens]

Fish had an incompetent lawyer. The ammo thing should have been so easy to beat. The FBI used 10mm for a short time and moved away from it because a) the guns were too large for many of their agents to use properly and b) they were disappointed with the performance of the 10mm round. Why wasn't that brought up?

[phddan]

Fish had an incompetent lawyer.
Snip

That.

Dan

[KaiserB]

One of the things that bugs me is that there are some ammo loads that aren't locally available for civilian use. The "Police Only" ammo is available online but shipping charges are a killer.

If you get into the "Police Only" ammo you may be having to defend against a "Police Wannabe" accusation (another favorite with the prosecutors). Questioning similar to: "Mr./Mrs. CHL, you are just a Police Wannabe, copying the police with guns and police ammo, even going so far as to purchase ammo from a LEO supplier. Is this correct?"

[gregthehand]

Hmm.....

How about this?

"Why did you use that kind of ammo?"

Me: "Because that's what they had at the gun store where I buy my ammo."

Pretty cut and dry.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I cannot imagine a competent judge even allowing that question in a trial.

Chas.