Defense against a dog.

[rugerwheels]

Do the same standards apply to defense against a dog as against a human? It seems to me there might be a higher standard applied, at least in a civil court, and especially if there are no witnesses to an event. For instance, a human assailant with a knife might be judged a threat but absent a witness the dog's reported bared teeth, growling and menacing manner might not fly with a civil jury. What are your thoughts and are you aware of any precedents?

[dws1117]

I suspect your right. It seems that people can be more attached to a pet than to other humans. While you may or may not face still criminal penalties, you would probably be roasted in civil court.

It will be intresting to read the post from more knowlegable folks.

[jbirds1210]

Thank you for bringing this up.....I am very interested in everyone's opinion (or law if applicable). My wife and I take a walk every evening and I have had to make the first move toward my gun several times. I have her carry the mace so I will have a chance to get my pistol if this ever occurs. We have several people on the block with Boxers and other large dogs that are left free in their front yard. I generally call the police when I see this, but they really don't care...they just want to know if anyone has been bitten.
I'll bet the 21 foot rule is much shorter for a K9! Those suckers can cover some space in a big hurry.....even with a little warning it would be difficult to get your weapon out and aim before being attacked.

[TxFire]

Certainely you do not call 911 everytime you see a dog free in HIS yard do you? Mine are frequently free on MY property including the front lawn. But mine are well trained and mannered. Now a dog freely running the streets or public property and not under the owners control is another story. Notice I say under the owners control, not an a leash. My dogs are usually off leash. They are off leash because they are well trained and are under my control. The are better behaved off leash than most peoples dogs on leash though. Sorry for the rant, just one of my issues. In my opinion ALL dogs and dog owners should go through at the least basic obedience training.

See my babies here. http://community.webshots.com/photo/703 ... 6105jpCajE

[Paladin]

Dogs are legally different than people.

You can not be charged with murder for killing dogs.

As far as I know, there are two things you have to be concerned with. Possible animal cruelty charges and the 'cost' of the dog. I'm told you can't be sued for any more than what the dog is worth.

Actually there is a third thing. Some dog owners might seek retribution.

A search of this website will turn up the laws for defending domestic animals against dog attacks they are very much weighted towards the defender.

I love animals, but wouldn't hesitate to shoot a dog if my life or the life of others or my own animals were in danger.

Most dogs are friendly. A few aren't.

[stevie_d_64]

Animals, regardless of species, are a product of their environment, therefore if they are abused, neglected they certainly stand the risk of being agressive, or even more desirous of simple attention, that could be misconstrued as aggressive or threatening...

I for one could not shoot to stop an animal (like a dog) because of these factors...Is it a risk I am willing to take upon myself or for another? Yes...

I would always be able to react appropriately if it did go sour...But it has never gotten to that point...

[anygunanywhere]

Notice I say under the owners control, not an a leash. My dogs are usually off leash. They are off leash because they are well trained and are under my control. The are better behaved off leash than most peoples dogs on leash though. Sorry for the rant, just one of my issues.

TXFire,

You obviously are one of the few who actually take time to train their dogs. In the past, while out exercising my dog, I often ran across a few individuals who had their dogs off leash on public trails. There were leash laws in effect, and a few took exception to my comments that they must obey leash laws just like everyone else. If the area is designated off-leash acceptable then that is a different story. Leash laws are for everyone, even the person "in control" of their animal. Sorry for the rant, just one of my issues.

[jbirds1210]

I do not live on acreage or in an area where free roaming dogs are appropriate. I have dogs and love them dearly...and keep them on a leash, no matter how well I think they will behave. I am not able to know for certain that my dog will not see another dog and run towards it or another person (although it would likely be to play). My lab is 100+ pounds and I feel that is my responsibility for her safety to keep her on a leash or play in the confines of a yard.
For those that feel they know 100% of how their animal will react to any situation, would you be inclined to file charges or sue someone that was defending themselves against an action that might be "out of character" for your pet?
I hope that I never have to fire a weapon at any animal....I love them, but like humans, I am not willing to be attacked by one.
Jason

[jbirds1210]

BTW,
TX, your dogs are beautiful!

[KBCraig]

One of the most disturbing things in my mind is the possibility of being charged with animal cruelty, even if you kill the dog cleanly. Killing a game animal or varmint isn't cruel, but killing a vicious dog is?

Other than "pet" status, can anyone tell me the ethical difference killing a coyote and killing a dog?

Kevin

[TxFire]

Thanks for the compliment JBird.

My dogs are in my opinion the exception and not the rule. My large male was a Certified Therapy Dog and he was also started in Schutzund (Obedience,Tracking and Protection). He was retired from a freind of ours as her stud dog for her kennel. My female has been trained in Obedience from the day we got her as a pup. She runs w/ me off-leash is areas (county) where I have been harrassed by other dogs of questionable intentions and she never breaks stride unless instructed to do so.
Now I know not everyone will agree w/ my practices, so on public areas I always have a leash w/ me in case someone else feels it inappropiate for my dogs to be off-leash. But in MY yard they are free to roam and do what they do. We also have electronic collars for some occasions "just in case". I am well aware of what my dog could do if they wanted to.
It would take a true attack for me to shoot a dog. I've been in situations where I was concerned about dogs in my line of work, but never have had a real incident.
Thanks again for listening to my rant.

[anygunanywhere]

TxFire,

I appreciate well trained animals. They are much more enjoyable. Most folks do not realize that dogs are actually better pets when they understand discipline and their place in the family pack. Dogs want to be dogs, not humans.

Now if parents would just understand that children need discipline too, this world would be a better place.

Anygun

[Charles L. Cotton]

One of the most disturbing things in my mind is the possibility of being charged with animal cruelty, even if you kill the dog cleanly.

Yep, I agree fully! Martha and I are dog lovers. We used to laugh at old people who made their dogs their children when the real kids grew up and left. We don't laugh at those people anymore; we are "those people!"

I hate people who set cats on fire, beat dogs with a hammer just to hear their bones snap, or starve their pets (I'm quoting from cases on the news), but to make that a felony and take up prison space when we have far better candidates for those beds is irresponsible, in my humble opinion. Again, I love animals and our dogs live a life of luxury. They live with us; sleep with us; go to the vet more than Martha and I go to our doctors; and eat a much healthier diet than we do. In the last 4 years, Martha and I have spent over $5,000 trying to save the lives of two dogs, neither of which cost us more than $300 to buy. But in spite of all that, animals don’t have “rights� and to say they do is demeaning to human life. Rights come either from God or the constitution and neither endow animals with “rights.�

If the nut-jobs with PETA and the Humane Society (now merged as one) have their way in the next legislative session, it will be far easier to kill a human attacking you than a rabid dog eating your 2 yr. old daughter. They had a bill introduced last session that would have gone a long way toward making hunting impossible, because of exposure to animal cruelty charges. This is not idle ranting folks, these people are flat crazy! PETA zealots spiked trees in the Pacific northwest, because they feel it's better for a logger to be killed or permanently maimed, than for an owl's nest to be lost. Since the merger with the Humane Society, they now have the money to greatly influence legislation. Think about that before donating to this organization, or buying any pet products that generate money for PETA/HS.

/rant

I’ve probably alienated someone with this, but that was surely not my intention. I love animals, but not animal fanatics.

Regards,
Chas.

[TxFire]

Charles,
I am an Dog lover to but agree w/ your statements and concerns. Thanks for reminding me.

Anygun,
I agree. My dogs can go almost all places because they are behaved. My dags are better behaved/disciplined than some peoples kids (parents fault).

[GrillKing]

I want to be very clear: I'm not advocating killling a dog just because it attacked, is about to attack or has killed another animal. Obviously a small dog that attacks a loose chicken is not the same as a large, ferocious dog that attacks a child, but the law apparently does provide for legal response to dog attacks on other animals. I couldn't find anything related directly to attacks on humans by dogs, but personally I would apply the same reasoning as I would with human on human. If an animal threatens imminent bodily harm, can't retreat, etc., I would use the force required to stop the threat or allow retreat. No more. Depending on the dog (size, ferocity, already attacking, inability to stop the threat w/o deadly force, etc.), that could include deadly force. Hopefully that never happens....

From the Health and Safety Code (Texas)

§ 822.013. DOGS OR COYOTES THAT ATTACK ANIMALS. (a) A dog
or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently
attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:
(1) any person witnessing the attack; or
(2) the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on
behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the
attack.
(b) A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this
section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in
control of the dog or coyote.
(c) A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or
coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic
animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return
it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal
control authority. The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all
costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all
damage done by the dog or coyote.
(d) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or
coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals,
or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the
local animal control authority.
(e) A person is not required to acquire a hunting license
under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or
coyote under this section.