Deadly force: punch to the face

[KBCraig]

It's well settled in Texas case law that blows to the head constitute deadly force, and may be responded to as such.

Sometimes it's good to have a reminder why "he was unarmed, it was just a punch!" is a poor excuse to not shoot an attacker.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/17387598/detail.html

Queens Man Dies From Punch To Face, Police Say

POSTED: 6:12 am EDT September 4, 2008
UPDATED: 8:19 am EDT September 4, 2008

NEW YORK -- A man has been arrested in Queens, facing charges he killed another man by punching him in the face with extreme force.

The 66-year-old victim, Nick Nowillo, was allegedly escorting a neighborhood woman home on Cresent Avenue in Long Island City late Wednesday. The woman told police she had asked for the help because the suspect, who has not been identified, was seen in the street acting strangely.

At some point Nowillo was confronted by his accused attacker and was hit several times, including with a powerful punch to the face, police said. He collapsed to the ground and died at Astoria General Hospital a short time later.

Charges are pending against the suspect.

Neighbors describe Nowillo as a leader in the area.

[Carry Big Stick]

Whew, just typed my reply and deleted it just one of those days I guess.

I have often thought about these types of situations and what would be some of the possible actions that you could justify before a jury. I think if it were multiple assailants then would have a much easier time convincing the jury that you're life was in immediate danger and had to use deadly force. We have all seen how kicking and stomping deaths are up in Great Britain. But what about just one assailant? Where would that line be that justifies the threat of deadly force or the use of deadly force?
Here is the video that I saw a while ago and really made me think of the what would I do and what could I do? I'm sure it has been posted here before. The language has been edited and I wouldn't dare just post the link due to the language that is in the comments.
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y080VA_l1bI[/youtube]

The DA saw the video and how brutal the attack was and upped the charge to agg assault. Also I count 8 other men that could have helped this guy out. The guy may have been big but I don't know if he could have taken on 5 of them. What ever happened to helping your fellow man out? I'm sure if this was happening to them they would appreciate any help they could get.
Would the man on the receiving end of the attack have been justified in the use of deadly force to stop this attack? He life was definitely in danger with the severity of the blows to the head.
Had the bystanders been carrying would they be justified in the threat of deadly force (putting their hand on their weapon or upholstering) or even the use of deadly force to protect a third person?

[seamusTX]

Gordon Hale, the first Texas CHL holder to shoot someone in self-defense, was attacked by a huge man who punched his face so hard that Mr. Hale had permanent injuries. The DA charged him with murder. Mr. Hale was no-billed.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... f=7&t=8886

As the commercials say, past performance is no guarantee of future results. A grand jury may pick over details of a particular incident and choose to indict, in which case you are toast.

- Jim

[ForTehNguyen]

you dont have to be armed to be able to inflict serious bodily harm on someone else.

[Nachos Libres]

Whew, just typed my reply and deleted it just one of those days I guess.

I have often thought about these types of situations and what would be some of the possible actions that you could justify before a jury. I think if it were multiple assailants then would have a much easier time convincing the jury that you're life was in immediate danger and had to use deadly force. We have all seen how kicking and stomping deaths are up in Great Britain. But what about just one assailant? Where would that line be that justifies the threat of deadly force or the use of deadly force?
Here is the video that I saw a while ago and really made me think of the what would I do and what could I do? I'm sure it has been posted here before. The language has been edited and I wouldn't dare just post the link due to the language that is in the comments.
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y080VA_l1bI[/youtube]

The DA saw the video and how brutal the attack was and upped the charge to agg assault. Also I count 8 other men that could have helped this guy out. The guy may have been big but I don't know if he could have taken on 5 of them. What ever happened to helping your fellow man out? I'm sure if this was happening to them they would appreciate any help they could get.
Would the man on the receiving end of the attack have been justified in the use of deadly force to stop this attack? He life was definitely in danger with the severity of the blows to the head.
Had the bystanders been carrying would they be justified in the threat of deadly force (putting their hand on their weapon or upholstering) or even the use of deadly force to protect a third person?

I'm not a big guy and I'm sure I'd be scared as well but there is no way I would stand there and let some big guy beat someone else like that. If just one or two of those people helped that poor guy out the tables would have been turned. Thank goodness in Texas we can conceal carry because I'd have no issue shooting that idiot.

[Armed-Texan]

I'm 6'3", 350# and i wouldn't stand up to something like that. Being big i know i have to use a little more discretion in using my gun, but that was brutal. my instructor told my brother and i to be careful about that, brother is about 6'5", and huge. but in the end it is all about your life being in imminent danger i believe, and in my opinion this guy's was.

[ForTehNguyen]

all three prereqs, ability, opportunity, intent were obviously present in the video, deadly force would've been authorized by law

[boomerang]

Gun control in action.

[glockowner]

Those guys standing around make me ill, NO HONOR!

anywho.

Question. I pretty much told my wife that as long as I am carrying my weapon I can NOT get into a fist fight or wrestling match with some one who approaches me wanting to whoop me.I am a self-defense instructor, and the way I see it, no matter how comfortable i feel about my empty handed combat skills all it takes is one lucky punch, i'm KO'd and the gun ends up in his hands. Now my life and my family's life is in his hands, if that is a one in a million chance, when it comes to my 5 year old boy, it's one too many for me. It's hard to know for sure what i will do until i'm in the situation but as of now i will back my family to safety the best i can but when he gets in my space i'll fire upon him. Am i right for thinking this way? I always run scenarios in my head and ask what would i do if... this is one. input?

[yahoshua]

Those guys standing around make me ill, NO HONOR!

anywho.

Question. I pretty much told my wife that as long as I am carrying my weapon I can NOT get into a fist fight or wrestling match with some one who approaches me wanting to whoop me.I am a self-defense instructor, and the way I see it, no matter how comfortable i feel about my empty handed combat skills all it takes is one lucky punch, i'm KO'd and the gun ends up in his hands. Now my life and my family's life is in his hands, if that is a one in a million chance, when it comes to my 5 year old boy, it's one too many for me. It's hard to know for sure what i will do until i'm in the situation but as of now i will back my family to safety the best i can but when he gets in my space i'll fire upon him. Am i right for thinking this way? I always run scenarios in my head and ask what would i do if... this is one. input?

Your sidearm is your primary defense in this situation and you draw it only, ONLY, when somebody is going to get shot (and it sure as hell won't be me if I were in your scenario). After all, he/she/it made a quick motion and you believed the assailant was reaching for a concealed weapon and therefore you believed your life to be in imminent and mortal danger. End of story. There is nothing wrong with your state of thinking in this manner.


As for all the people standing there, it's called the Bystander Effect. It's actually quite common these days.

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

[xpur3l0g1cx]

Did the guy have a chance to fear for his life? Probly not, WWYD what would yall do?

[casingpoint]

U.S. Citizen Kicked In Face, Beaten To Death By Mexican Police



"His nose was totally off the side of his face."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hePo ... QD92U7U2O2

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss ... ays_h.html

[crochetetc]

ok so my question is...we know the guy being beaten was in danger but what if one of the bystanders was a chl holder, would he legally be able to pull his weapon on him or would that be considered interfering with a third party altercation? Would the bg have to make a threat to him directly to justify it?

Also wondering if the owner/manager of the establishment was a chl holder would he have the right to draw his weapon on the guy?

Thanks,
Kristie

[sivart-dod]

U.S. Citizen Kicked In Face, Beaten To Death By Mexican Police



"His nose was totally off the side of his face."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hePo ... QD92U7U2O2

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss ... ays_h.html

yeah that's great!! we go over to Mexico for vacation and get killed/kidnapped/raped/robbed etc. They come over here, TO LIVE, and when they get pulled over you cant even ask them if they are a US citizen, god forbid their feelings get hurt or something. Isn't it wonderful how things work?

It seems a large majority of Mexican cops have the same morals and value system that the inmates in the Huntsville prison system have. I think they should be extradited to the US and tried for DEATH HERE! not put on house arrest in Mexico.

[seamusTX]

ok so my question is...we know the guy being beaten was in danger but what if one of the bystanders was a chl holder, would he legally be able to pull his weapon on him or would that be considered interfering with a third party altercation? Would the bg have to make a threat to him directly to justify it?

Welcome to the forum.

In the first place, no self-respecting person would be in the group of zombies. I don't know what the establishment is. A bar? They all look like they are drunk or on drugs.

Texas law allows the use of force and deadly force in the defense of a third person, if "the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person."

The first step would be simply to tell the attacker to stop and also to tell two other people to call 911. That might work. If he continued to beat the victim or turned on the defender, production of a weapon would be justified, IMHO.

As always, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

- Jim