ID and CHL question

[barres]

We're all familiar with:

GC §411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who
fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by
this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as
provided by Section 411.187.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or refuses to
display the license and identification as required by Subsection (a)
after previously having had the person's license suspended for a violation
of that subsection. An offense under this subsection is a Class B
misdemeanor.

Theinvisibleheart's recent post about his incident with a LEO got me to thinking, which has the potential to get me into trouble . So, I come you you good people to keep me out of trouble.

We all know that, when we get pulled over, we're going to have to produce our DL and proof of insurance. If we have those at the window waiting for the officer before he has a chance to ask us for ID, are we legally required to also hand over our CHL (not should we, but are we legally required)?







BTW, I would present my CHL, I'm just wondering what your opinions are of what the law requires/says.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Now that's a good law school exam question! Good law school exam questions don't have answers, they just provide fertile ground to argue both sides.

Good job!

Chas.

[AEA]

If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license.

Pretty simple to me........
By Law, only when you are carrying.

The POLL questions are the ambiguous Lawyer type stuff..........

But you can go ahead an pay a Lawyer to get the same answer if you want!

[Taxman]

AEA I think the quirk to barres question/comment is that he beats the LEO to the punch by offering his DL and Proof of Insurance before it is demanded.

So I guess the answer would be that it "depends". I don't think that I would do anything to intentionally tick the LEO off anymore!

[AEA]

Yes, I believe you are right.

But if he never had his DL and POI ready to hand the Officer on his approach, the Officer would then ask for it ("Demand") almost immediately. So, if he is carrying he should include the CHL in his stack of papers to have ready and hand to the Officer on his approach.

If he is NOT Carrying, then by Law, he is not required to display his CHL when asked for ID directly or even implied.

Easiest way to eliminate all this confusion that the OP is worried about is to carry 24/7 and ALWAYS present CHL with ID when asked ("Demanded").

Which brings to mind.............
When the Officer asks you for ID, should you ask the Officer if he is merely "asking" or is he "Demanding" you present the documents?

I just think his Poll questions could have been worded a bit more clearly.

[brianko]

this situation

What situation? This poll makes no sense.

[AEA]

Exactly my point.........

[rokclimbertx]

Seems to me, the fact that you are being pulled over is or could be seen as the demand for ID...

[FlynJay]

The real question is: what is the officer going to "remeber" about what happened. It is in his habit pattern to request ID and insurance during a stop. If you have that ready is the officer going to remember that he didn't ask, probably not. His answer to the question;" Did you request to see the defendent's ID? Yes, sir; Procedure is to ask for ID and insurance."

With a good lawyer you may get away with it, but is it worth it? While it does meet the wording of the statute, it doesn't meet the spirit of the statute.

In my opinion, if you are carrying and you are showing ID, also show your CHL.

Think, Texas law could be written like other states with "CHL holder shall notify... that he is carrying" with no definition of what notification constitutes.

[FlynJay]

Seems to me, the fact that you are being pulled over is or could be seen as the demand for ID...

No, being pulled over is a demand for you to ... pull over. You are not requried to do anything other than pull over until the officer asks/demands you to do otherwise.

He could be just pulling you over to tell you that your tail light is out and never ask for an ID. I've had it happen to me, and I appreciated it.

[barres]

this situation

What situation? This poll makes no sense.

Sorry about that. The BB software makes you write the post and then create the poll, but then it puts the poll before the post. So I described the situation in the post which could only be read after the poll.

[Morgan]

I wouldn't want to be the test case. I understand logically where you're going.

[srothstein]

I think Charles hit the nail on the head. This is a great question which could be argued both ways.

And, what is worse than Charles beating me to that is FlynJay beating me to the exact example I was going to use. I have pulled over a lot of cars and trucks for not having the taillights on and never asked for ID. In the early days of daytime running lights, the headlights would be on for the driver and he would not realize he had not turned on the lights properly. The taillights were never on. I would pull them over if it was still early in the evening just to remind them to turn on the light.

So, I agree that the demand was not made by the pulling over. I would save the voluntary showing as a defense if this ever came up, just to confuse the DA and hope to raise enough doubt in the jury's mind.

But, just to confuse people even more, I would always ask for ID if I was pulling someone over for a violation where I was thinking of writing a ticket or warning. Even if they had the DL ready, I would always go through the same speech (based on the seven step approach). This would mean that the CHL would have heard my demand even if he did have a DL ready.

[Locksmith]

No longer valid

[psycho_bob42]

Why do people think it's a good idea to have everything ready when the cop gets to your window. If I was a cop the last thing I would want to see is somebody digging around in their pockets, purses and glove boxes as I walk up to the car. When I get pulled over I look for a safe place to stop, I pull far off the road if there is room, I turn on the overhead light, roll down the window, and sit there with my hands on the wheel until the officer gets there. If he asks for ID I tell him it is in my wallet in my back pocket and then i get it.