CHL holder, work on a university

[will381796]

Hello all. My question relates to the legality of leaving my handgun, concealed, inside my locked vehicle when it is parked on campus. I work at a college university. I realize that taking the gun inside the premises is illegal. I thought, from my CHL class, that it is legal to leave the handgun locked up in my vehicle. However, after reading the handbook of operating procedures for my institution (this section was last updated in October of 2000), the following is stated:

As an educational institution, it has been against the law to carry a weapon, concealed or not, on the campus since its establishment. The law was not changed by the recently enacted “concealed handgun” legislation. It is against the Texas Penal Code to have a weapon anywhere on campus, even in a vehicle parked on campus.

Specifically, Chapter 46, Texas Penal Code, as amended, prohibits the carrying of firearms or other prohibited weapons by either licensees (pursuant to provisions of Senate Bill 60) or other persons “on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution ...unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution”. Exceptions to the foregoing prohibition are peace officers, a member of the armed forces or national guard, a guard employed by a penal institution, a security officer, or an officer of the court discharging their official duties.

The first statement that I made bold is what confuses me. This seems to fly in the face of what I was told in my CHL class.

The second section that I made bold I wanted to clarify: they are stating that you cannot take a gun into a school-owned or school-used vehicle, correct?

If what this handbook states is in fact incorrect, should I contact the legal department and inform them of this?

Would this constitute notice to me, as an employee, to not to leave a gun in my vehicle while parked on campus? I never signed anything stating that I agreed to these terms and nowhere does it state possible punishment being termination.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

Addendum: I of course would love to leave my carry piece in my vehicle while I'm at work. I don't mind "stretching" work policy so long as a law is not going to be broken. At least until HB 1301/SB 730 hopefully pass... :-D

[seamusTX]

The handbook is wrong about possessing a handgun on a school grounds. Under current Texas law, it is legal to have a firearm in your car. If you have a CHL, it is legal to walk around armed on school grounds when school-sponsored events are not taking place.

This was discussed very recently: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 01&start=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think at one time the term premises was not strictly defined and could be interpreted as school grounds.

The phrase "passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution" means school buses or other passenger transportation vehicles owned, leased, or operated by the school district. It does not refer to your personal vehicle.

Moi, I wouldn't say anything. The Japanese have a saying about the nail that sticks up getting hammered down.

As usual, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

- Jim

[will381796]

The handbook is wrong about possessing a handgun on a school grounds. Under current Texas law, it is legal to have a firearm in your car. If you have a CHL, it is legal to walk around armed on school grounds when school-sponsored events are not taking place.

Classes are in session when I am parked on university property. Does this preclude my leaving the gun in my car? Thanks.

[seamusTX]

It is not illegal to leave a firearm in your personal vehicle when school is in session.

You can't carry a weapon to a school-sponsored sports event, practice, workout, assembly, etc., that is taking place outdoors on school grounds.

This area of law that has not been defined in case law because no CHL holder has been prosecuted simply for carrying in the vicinity of a school-sponsored event, AFAIK.

- Jim

[Count]

The handbook is wrong about possessing a handgun on a school grounds. Under current Texas law, it is legal to have a firearm in your car. If you have a CHL, it is legal to walk around armed on school grounds when school-sponsored events are not taking place.

Classes are in session when I am parked on university property. Does this preclude my leaving the gun in my car? Thanks.

It sounds like Seamus was saying it's legal to walk around outside on campus as long as you don't stumble upon a football team practice, pep rally, or al fresco class. Locked in your private car should be fine in Texas.

[pedalman]

I work for a community college. Texas law does not make it a crime to lock your sidearm in your vehicle in their parking lot. But it is likely that you may get fired, if you are found out.

Unfortunately, colleges and universities like to think they know the law, but they don't. My employer makes a similar claim. Since I don't feel like being fired, I have to park on the street. Fortunately, I'm right beside the building where I work.

If SB 730 passes, this should make life a little easier for both of us.

[will381796]

The handbook is wrong about possessing a handgun on a school grounds. Under current Texas law, it is legal to have a firearm in your car. If you have a CHL, it is legal to walk around armed on school grounds when school-sponsored events are not taking place.

Classes are in session when I am parked on university property. Does this preclude my leaving the gun in my car? Thanks.

It sounds like Seamus was saying it's legal to walk around outside on campus as long as you don't stumble upon a football team practice, pep rally, or al fresco class. Locked in your private car should be fine in Texas.

Cool. My question stemmed from their differing use of "premises" and "grounds" in the law:

on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

Obviously the first part = okay to store in the car. I, not being a lawyer, would consider "classes" to be a school sponsored event. But the way you're interpreting it makes more sense. Hopefully that's the way the jury would interpret it lol.

Yeah, I've written to my senators and representatives urging them to support those bills. Hopefully that will be something good to come out of this legislative session.

Our HOP say very little in the way of weapons on campus and they don't specify any type of punishment for employees that keep a weapon on campus, except for their outdated interpretation of the law and stating (incorrectly) that it is illegal.

[seamusTX]

Our HOP say very little in the way of weapons on campus and they don't specify any type of punishment for employees that keep a weapon on campus,...

If you read the whole thing from beginning to end, you will probably find a part that says violating any policy can lead to progressive discipline and termination.

- Jim

[ClarkLZeuss]

I'm on a university campus nearly every day (in a bad part of town), so I'm thinking about this a lot, weighing the pros and cons of having it in my car. The one part that worries me is the word "grounds." Obviously with the word "premises" we're safe, because that is specifically defined as buildings and NOT parking lots or even parking garages. But "grounds" worries me. It could mean the entire plot of land the school sits on.

But the more I think about it, I'm starting to believe that the intent of "grounds" was to prevent people from walking on the grounds while armed, not leaving it in their car on said grounds. Anyone else see it that way?

[Liberty]

I'm on a university campus nearly every day (in a bad part of town), so I'm thinking about this a lot, weighing the pros and cons of having it in my car. The one part that worries me is the word "grounds." Obviously with the word "premises" we're safe, because that is specifically defined as buildings and NOT parking lots or even parking garages. But "grounds" worries me. It could mean the entire plot of land the school sits on.

But the more I think about it, I'm starting to believe that the intent of "grounds" was to prevent people from walking on the grounds while armed, not leaving it in their car on said grounds. Anyone else see it that way?

No the law very clearly says that as long as there isn't any school sponsored activities going on we are allowed to carry. All it means is that we be at practice sessions, rallys or outside classes while carrying. The law was written to clarify we can carry, not to restrict us.

[AJSully421]

your school, much to our surprise, is full of people who have no idea what the law says, and twist it to meet what they think the law should say. they don't like guns, and are willing to LIE to make you comply with their anti-gun wishes.

It is perfectly legal for you to keep your loaded handgun in your personal vehicle in the school parking lot. If it is found out that you do, you cannot be prosecuted by the law, but the school could fire you for it.

I go to TCU (conservative... thank God) and keep my carry gun in my truck, and have dropped off a copy of the relevant section of the penal code at the university police HQ. They know who I am, and they know that they cannot do anything about it.

[LarryH]

I go to TCU (conservative... thank God) and keep my carry gun in my truck, and have dropped off a copy of the relevant section of the penal code at the university police HQ. They know who I am, and they know that they cannot do anything about it.

. . . until TCU gets a new president or new chief of police who thinks "he knows better" . . .

[seamusTX]

. . . until TCU gets a new president or new chief of police who thinks "he knows better" . . .

Since it's legal to have a firearm in your vehicle on a public street or school parking lot, no police officer has probable cause for a search of the vehicle, therefore no basis for an arrest.

If they arrest someone who verbally talks about his rights under the law, they are liable for a federal civil rights violation.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it would take a particularly clueless police official to do it.

- Jim

[GrillKing]

I go to TCU (conservative... thank God) and keep my carry gun in my truck, and have dropped off a copy of the relevant section of the penal code at the university police HQ. They know who I am, and they know that they cannot do anything about it.

. . . until TCU gets a new president or new chief of police who thinks "he knows better" . . .

TCU, being private, can enforce a no-guns policy via 30.06, written or oral, so be careful about advertising your status. Also, they can boot you from school via school policy even w/o effective notice under 30.06. No crime committed, but you are still gone.

[will381796]

. . . until TCU gets a new president or new chief of police who thinks "he knows better" . . .

Since it's legal to have a firearm in your vehicle on a public street or school parking lot, no police officer has probable cause for a search of the vehicle, therefore no basis for an arrest.

Here's one of those fateful "what-if" situations? I know some universities use dog/gun sniffing dogs on campus, and possibly throughout their parking facilities. One of these dogs might hit on your car because of the carry piece. This gives them probable cause to search your vehicle. If PD searches your car because of this, and all they find is your handgun (which is there legally), can they/will they report this to your university's administration? Are PD there to enforce school employment policy or to enforce the law? :-/