Interesting CHL conversation at church today...

[The Annoyed Man]

A small number of my friends at church know that I have a CHL, and that I carry in church and on stage. It's not something that I broadcast, but it is something that I have discussed with a small number of friends who have been curious themselves about obtaining a CHL. Today in the services, our leadership announced that our church will be partnering with International Justice Mission in Cambodia, as well as our justice ministry locally. IJM confronts human traffickers, particularly in the sex-trade, and they rescue their victims and provide places of recovery, restoration, and redemption for them.

I was on stage with the band for both services. After the 2nd service worship piece, I went out into the lobby to relax a bit - having already sat through all of the first service. Our Worship Pastor and I started talking, just the two of us, about the IJM ministry, and I made a comment that getting involved in this ministry could potentially be much more dangerous and demanding that other ministries, because the sex-slavery traffickers and others that IJM goes up against are hardened criminals, and they will shoot someone they don't like in a heartbeat. And it's not just in Cambodia. This stuff happens right here in Dallas and Fort Worth too.

That prompted him to to ask if he could talk to me about something. He said that he had begun thinking about the need to get a CHL because of the above, and because times are a changin', and he had heard from someone that I have a CHL. He wanted to know if I could give him the information about how to go about getting one himself. Then we got to talking in general about it, and he told me that he was always glad to know that I'm carrying on stage when we are playing because it made him feel safer to know that there was someone on stage backing him up who was equipped to deal with trouble if it arose. (I didn't mention to him that I carry on stage, so whoever told him I have a CHL must have also told him that I do so.)

I told him that I know a few others who CHL at church, but I don't know all of us who do, and that I would dearly love to know. I told the Pastor that I think it would be valuable simply from the perspective of avoiding confusion if a situation were to arise in which multiple guns were produced during a ruckus. While we were talking, another CHL friend walked up and joined the conversation. I also stressed to the Pastor that, if CHLers at our church were to try and connect with one another for this reason, it would have to be very informally organized, because the church could not legally be the official organizer of such an effort. Anyway, he is all for it, and he declared his intention to carry on stage once he gets his CHL too.

I told him that I would gladly loan him one of my pistols for the class if he wanted to borrow one, and that I would be glad to help him pick one out to buy. I am also referring him to Crossfire's CHL class, because it is very near to where he lives. All in all a very interesting conversation.

[ELB]

Good luck with your friend and your church. Prepare well, but hope you don't need all this.

[dewayneward]

after the IL. murder, I am bringing up the need for chl at my church. I am nervous because I dont want to be told that I cant bring my gun to church. I am MR 24/7 now.

[frazzled]

We have not brought up the issue at our church. She Who Must Be Obeyed has a good idea of at least three likelies at the main service (not counting the retired rector who still hangs out and was known for having a pistol in his drawer). While I would like to, I don't think it would be prudent to be more formal at our church about it as I could see that going south quickly. Its a conservative church but in a nonconservative area if you get my drift.

[Oldgringo]

We have not brought up the issue at our church. She Who Must Be Obeyed has a good idea of at least three likelies at the main service (not counting the retired rector who still hangs out and was known for having a pistol in his drawer). While I would like to, I don't think it would be prudent to be more formal at our church about it as I could see that going south quickly. Its a conservative church but in a nonconservative area if you get my drift.

If a defense team/security subject has ever been brought up in our little Methodist church, I'm not aware of it. Most of the congregation is too old to get out of the way, let alone put up resistance such as was done in the Illinois church. I'm pretty sure there is one other CW in church besides mine, maybe more. In the meantime, CHL means CHL which also means, don't ask, don't tell.

[frazzled]

We have not brought up the issue at our church. She Who Must Be Obeyed has a good idea of at least three likelies at the main service (not counting the retired rector who still hangs out and was known for having a pistol in his drawer). While I would like to, I don't think it would be prudent to be more formal at our church about it as I could see that going south quickly. Its a conservative church but in a nonconservative area if you get my drift.

If a defense team/security subject has ever been brought up in our little Methodist church, I'm not aware of it. Most of the congregation is too old to get out of the way, let alone put up resistance such as was done in the Illinois church. I'm pretty sure there is one other CW in church besides mine, maybe more. In the meantime, CHL means CHL which also means, don't ask, don't tell.

Exactly on all counts. I think half the membership wouldn't even hear a commotion they're so old and deaf-me included

[The Annoyed Man]

[In the meantime, CHL means CHL which also means, don't ask, don't tell.

For the most part, and in most situations, I would agree. But IMHO, a church congregation can be a slightly different scenario, and I'll try to explain why the idea makes sense to me, at my particular church. . . .

My church is decent sized - somewhere around 1200-1300 members. When I moved here to Texas in mid-2006, I had no family other than my wife and son here; and I had no friends other than the three other guys who moved the company here with me. Boohoo, right? Wrong. I found a great church, and they became my extended family. My close friends here are the guys in my Bible study, and the other men and women in the band and on the pastoral staff. Over time, my circle of friends has expanded to include a few guys I've grown close to in the Celebrate Recovery ministry of which I am a part, and a few others of the older members of my church. Even so, the number of people at church who know me relatively well is not all that large - probably fewer than 100 people - and only a small number of them, maybe 5-10, know that I have a CHL. Most of those 5-10 are also range buddies. BTW, fickman, who is a member here, used to be a member of my church, and he will tell you that our senior pastor has no objection to CHL at church. The point is that I am fairly comfortable with those people who do know having possession of that knowledge, and I am also fairly comfortable that they are discreet with that knowledge. I would be willing to bet that my worship leader had mentioned in passing to one of those who do know about my CHL that he was interested in getting one, and that person had told him that he should see me about it for more information, but that person isn't blabbing it to every person he knows.

I'm 56 years old, and the average age of my church's membership is probably not more than 30, so us old "grayheads" tend to stand out in the crowd. Of the three other CHL holders at church that I know of, I'm easily the oldest. I am probably old enough to be the father of almost all of the band members, for instance. What's really cool about being one of the older members is that I tend to get treated both like a contemporary and like a favorite uncle by all the younger folks. I like it. I like it alot, and I have come to love them all very much and I feel protective of them. They are my family here in Texas.

I agree that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy makes it difficult to know who carries at my church and who doesn't, and finding out is an almost pointless exercise. Many of them might feel exactly that way, and they don't want anybody else to know they carry - even if I am sympathetic to CHL in general, and CHL in church specifically. As other discussions on this very board have illustrated, some people wholeheartedly endorse carrying in church; others are ambivalent about whether or not they should carry in church; and still others are uncomfortable with it and don't want to do it. Each to his own. But speaking strictly for myself, I believe that in a church, God gives it to some to be shepherds, some to be sheep, and some to be sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog, and I expressed that sentiment, using those words, in my conversation with our worship pastor. He enthusiastically endorsed my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

My who point about being curious about other CHL holders at my church is that, for those who are comfortable with it, I think it would be a useful exercise to gather informally together, if for no other reason than being able to identify one another as "good guys" in the event of a situation in which one or more of us feels compelled to draw our weapons. I don't want to get mistakenly shot by a member of my own "family," and I don't want to mistakenly shoot a member of my own "family." Granted, good tactical awareness can go a long way toward mitigating the possibility - but good tactical awareness necessarily includes knowing who the good guys are, who the bad guys are, and being able to tell the difference between the two. Why else do cops wear uniforms, badges, jackets with "SWAT" or "FBI" in big letters on the back, etc., etc.?

If someone at my church doesn't want me or anyone else to know about their CHL status, I'm fine with that. Every person has to make that determination for themselves. They also have to live with the consequences of their choice - as do I. What I'm suggesting is only for those who would voluntarily participate, and that person's choice whether or not to participate or is beyond my judgement, and beyond the judgement of anybody here. It is their decision alone to make.

All I know is that the world is changing, and bad guys are learning that churches, like schools, are target rich environments. And in the case of our partnering with International Justice Mission, we have potentially opened ourselves to a greater risk of predation. I take comfort in knowing that there are brothers and sisters in Christ at my church who are beginning to see themselves as sheepdogs too. I think it is a good thing that our worship pastor feels the same way. I believe that, with his backing and participation, my goal of forming an informal alliance of CHL holders will be fulfilled through discreet and trusted word of mouth, and that it will be a benefit to the church - even though the congregation at large is unaware of its existence, and whether or not every CHL holder who is a member chooses to participate.

[LaserTex]

Doug <BARK BARK>

[Oldgringo]

[In the meantime, CHL means CHL which also means, don't ask, don't tell.

For the most part, and in most situations, I would agree. But IMHO, a church congregation can be a slightly different scenario, and I'll try to explain why the idea makes sense to me, at my particular church. . . .

My church is decent sized - somewhere around 1200-1300 members. When I moved here to Texas in mid-2006, I had no family other than my wife and son here; and I had no friends other than the three other guys who moved the company here with me. Boohoo, right? Wrong. I found a great church, and they became my extended family. My close friends here are the guys in my Bible study, and the other men and women in the band and on the pastoral staff. Over time, my circle of friends has expanded to include a few guys I've grown close to in the Celebrate Recovery ministry of which I am a part, and a few others of the older members of my church. Even so, the number of people at church who know me relatively well is not all that large - probably fewer than 100 people - and only a small number of them, maybe 5-10, know that I have a CHL. Most of those 5-10 are also range buddies. BTW, fickman, who is a member here, used to be a member of my church, and he will tell you that our senior pastor has no objection to CHL at church. The point is that I am fairly comfortable with those people who do know having possession of that knowledge, and I am also fairly comfortable that they are discreet with that knowledge. I would be willing to bet that my worship leader had mentioned in passing to one of those who do know about my CHL that he was interested in getting one, and that person had told him that he should see me about it for more information, but that person isn't blabbing it to every person he knows.

I'm 56 years old, and the average age of my church's membership is probably not more than 30, so us old "grayheads" tend to stand out in the crowd. Of the three other CHL holders at church that I know of, I'm easily the oldest. I am probably old enough to be the father of almost all of the band members, for instance. What's really cool about being one of the older members is that I tend to get treated both like a contemporary and like a favorite uncle by all the younger folks. I like it. I like it alot, and I have come to love them all very much and I feel protective of them. They are my family here in Texas.

I agree that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy makes it difficult to know who carries at my church and who doesn't, and finding out is an almost pointless exercise. Many of them might feel exactly that way, and they don't want anybody else to know they carry - even if I am sympathetic to CHL in general, and CHL in church specifically. As other discussions on this very board have illustrated, some people wholeheartedly endorse carrying in church; others are ambivalent about whether or not they should carry in church; and still others are uncomfortable with it and don't want to do it. Each to his own. But speaking strictly for myself, I believe that in a church, God gives it to some to be shepherds, some to be sheep, and some to be sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog, and I expressed that sentiment, using those words, in my conversation with our worship pastor. He enthusiastically endorsed my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

My who point about being curious about other CHL holders at my church is that, for those who are comfortable with it, I think it would be a useful exercise to gather informally together, if for no other reason than being able to identify one another as "good guys" in the event of a situation in which one or more of us feels compelled to draw our weapons. I don't want to get mistakenly shot by a member of my own "family," and I don't want to mistakenly shoot a member of my own "family." Granted, good tactical awareness can go a long way toward mitigating the possibility - but good tactical awareness necessarily includes knowing who the good guys are, who the bad guys are, and being able to tell the difference between the two. Why else do cops wear uniforms, badges, jackets with "SWAT" or "FBI" in big letters on the back, etc., etc.?

If someone at my church doesn't want me or anyone else to know about their CHL status, I'm fine with that. Every person has to make that determination for themselves. They also have to live with the consequences of their choice - as do I. What I'm suggesting is only for those who would voluntarily participate, and that person's choice whether or not to participate or is beyond my judgement, and beyond the judgement of anybody here. It is their decision alone to make.

All I know is that the world is changing, and bad guys are learning that churches, like schools, are target rich environments. And in the case of our partnering with International Justice Mission, we have potentially opened ourselves to a greater risk of predation. I take comfort in knowing that there are brothers and sisters in Christ at my church who are beginning to see themselves as sheepdogs too. I think it is a good thing that our worship pastor feels the same way. I believe that, with his backing and participation, my goal of forming an informal alliance of CHL holders will be fulfilled through discreet and trusted word of mouth, and that it will be a benefit to the church - even though the congregation at large is unaware of its existence, and whether or not every CHL holder who is a member chooses to participate.

Well said, I couldn't agree more. Yours is a much larger, more diverse and much more metropolitan environment than we have here in our little hamlet in the Pineys. Even though, the bus (long dog) doesn't even go through here, I think I prefer our pace to yours. Keep 'em flyin'.

[MTICop]

I agree with what you are saying but I don't see how you can get it done. As in any situation such as this, church or otherwise, the bad guys and good guys can be hard to distinguish. My suggestion, for what it's worth to you, would be for you and they people you know have a CHL to get with your pastor and adopt a contingency plan(s). You should be able to pass this to the church without even revealing the fact that you or your buddies have guns in the church. This might allow others to come forward and let the leadership know that they also can assist. This may not be practical in a church your size so take it for what it's worth.

That's my $.02 for what it's worth. Hope it helps you in some way. I am glad to hear your church leadership is interested and supports this idea.

[The Annoyed Man]

I agree with what you are saying but I don't see how you can get it done. As in any situation such as this, church or otherwise, the bad guys and good guys can be hard to distinguish. My suggestion, for what it's worth to you, would be for you and they people you know have a CHL to get with your pastor and adopt a contingency plan(s). You should be able to pass this to the church without even revealing the fact that you or your buddies have guns in the church. This might allow others to come forward and let the leadership know that they also can assist. This may not be practical in a church your size so take it for what it's worth.

That's my $.02 for what it's worth. Hope it helps you in some way. I am glad to hear your church leadership is interested and supports this idea.

Thanks for the input.

By the way, I found out tonight who it was who told the pastor that I have a CHL. It was one of the guys in band who is one of my range buddies, and the situation happened exactly as I imagined it. The pastor had told him about his concern, and my friend referred him to me.

[MTICop]

Good to know people respect your expertise in this matter enough to refer those interested to you. Good stuff and good on you.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

I'm in somewhat of an ill-defined position at my smallish church with regard to CHL and
carrying issues. Check it out.

As one of 9 Trustees, I am responsible for the building and grounds. But at one of our
Trustee meetings, the subject came up about security during services should we have
some kind of a bad guy come in to the sanctuary.

The head trustee at the time was the only woman of our group of 9. She mentioned that
their are LEO's who are members of the church, and that we should not point them out
during an incident so that they would be able to gain some advantage over the bad guy.
She didn't clearly state that weapons are carried or what their plan would be to deal
with a bad situation.

Well I know pretty much everyone at church and I'm at my wits end to figure out who the
heck could be a LEO. If there is one or more of them, I would expect that they would be
carrying.

Without mentioning it to anyone else at church, I have been carrying my Taurus 9MM
and an extra mag every Sunday. I have not mentioned it because whether I carry or
not is nobody's business. Do I trumpet whether I'm wearing boxers or briefs? I think
not.

Our pastor is part time military and I would not be surprised if he carries, but of course
there's no way I would broach this subject.

I'd like to have a more effective communication with other Trustees about our protection
plans, but I have never brought it up due to a fear of meeting with gun-phobia. Our
church is not 30.06 posted and I don't want it to be. So I carry quietly and hope the day
never comes when I have to draw down on someone.

[The Annoyed Man]

ADDENDUM: Crossfire has kindly offered to teach a CHL class at our church if we can get enough people together to make it worth doing. I told the pastor I mentioned in the OP about the offer, and he is behind it 100%. So we are doing a sub rosa campaign to gin up interest. He's going to approach the other people in the band individually, and I am talking to other people who I know to be either CHL holders or shooting enthusiasts to quietly spread the word about the class. I am giving my business cards to these people, so that they can use them to refer interested parties back to me. Hopefully, over the course of the next few weeks, we'll get enough people interested to make it worth Crossfire's time to do the class.

[AEA]

Do like the Secret Service does........

Special lapel pens (could be anything everyone agrees to) to identify who is carrying.

You should see them if/when you take aim at the wrong person.

Probably not a good idea to select your Life Member NRA pin though!