accidental discharge

[lunchbox]

My brother has a CZ52 and it fell out of his pocket the but hit the ground and it fired it hit a door frame went through the ceiling and likely through the roof and god only knows how far after that


any ideas
the gun was cocked and locked
did the sear break loose from being dropped

accidental discharge

[Liberty]

I don't know much about the gun, but a quick internet search indicates that the gun was made 50 years ago for the Eastern Europeans.200,000 made from 52-54. It has been said that guns of modern manufacture should be safe from a 4 foot drop onto concrete. I don't believe that that the CZ53v would qualify.

• They were designed and manufactured more than 50 years ago. . Even 1911s weren't completely drop proof. I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the army issue 1911 didn't have firing pin blocks.
• The Communist Iron curtain countries weren't all that concerned about safety issues, particularly for their military. Their military equipment tends to be crude and made of crappy materials. Think Yugo and AK47s, and Soviet submarines
• Because the gun was made for only 2 years, there wasn't likely much feed back to design improvement during the life of the product.
• The CZ52 seems to have earned a reputation for firing when activating the decocker. This happens when certain parts are worn. One can infer that it is possible that on a 50 year old gun that these parts could be worn and that the firing pin block is subject to wear.

Considering all of this, it seems that it's very likely that it could go off if dropped. The gun seems like a poor choice for a concealed pocket carry for a number of reasons.

[lunchbox]

this is not a CC gun it is a house gun
now that i think about it I told him to keep the hammer down on it or not load the chamber

[gemini]

quote: Liberty , "Even 1911s weren't completely drop proof. I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the army issue 1911 didn't have firing pin blocks."

....because FP blocks were not in the original design....
The FP blocks on the 1911 are unneccessary. I carry both with and without 1911 models. I prefer series '70.
California has a "drop test" for all firearms sold there. Several manuf. of 1911's have refused
to submit to Calif. rediculously overbearing gun regulations by NOT installing either the schwartz or Colt FP
block systems in there pistols....they don't ship to Calif. Understand the mechanical workings of the 1911
and you'll understand why they are one of , if not the most, safe auto pistols ever made.
If the sight of a C&L'd hammer on a 1911 is disturbing to some.....get into the internals of
a striker fired pistol and REALLY get scared.
Most AD's or ND's are really ID's (idiot discharges). Just saying.

[lunchbox]

well now he says the hammer was down and the safety was on the only thing i can figure is the hammer hit the ground hard enough to move the pin


(it was late at night when he told me what happened I may have assumed some details)

[Liberty]

quote: Liberty , "Even 1911s weren't completely drop proof. I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the army issue 1911 didn't have firing pin blocks."

....because FP blocks were not in the original design....
The FP blocks on the 1911 are unneccessary. I carry both with and without 1911 models. I prefer series '70.
California has a "drop test" for all firearms sold there. Several manuf. of 1911's have refused
to submit to Calif. rediculously overbearing gun regulations by NOT installing either the schwartz or Colt FP
block systems in there pistols....they don't ship to Calif. Understand the mechanical workings of the 1911
and you'll understand why they are one of , if not the most, safe auto pistols ever made.
If the sight of a C&L'd hammer on a 1911 is disturbing to some.....get into the internals of
a striker fired pistol and REALLY get scared.
Most AD's or ND's are really ID's (idiot discharges). Just saying.

And some AD's or ND's happen because someone didn't understand their guns. Just sayin..
One really should really understand the frailties of their guns. Most people who handle guns on a regular basis have had them fall in some way.
I agree that a block may not be necessary if the pin spring is strong enough, and the pin is light enough. I also believe it is foolhardy if one isn't real sure. I wouldn't carry a gun that might fire if dropped. While I take pride that my guns are banned in California. The drop test though is a pretty good idea in my ever so humble opinion. An fp block just seems like a good idea and I can't understand why one would object.

Th CZ 52 apparently did have a FP block but in old guns apparently it tends to wear out in such away as to become nonfunctioning.

[gemini]

and if you don't understand your gun I don't think you should be carrying it ...just saying.

The FP block on a gun with a decocking lever is NOT the same thing as a FP safety on a 1911.
The FP safety device on a 1911 is deactivated by applying pressure to the grip safety. That allows
the little pin to drop free from the indentation/groove on the bottom of the slide and drop into the recess in the top of the frame.
A 1911 has a thumb safety and a grip safety already installed. Both must must deactivated
in order for the pistol to fire. A firing pin spring too weak to keep the end of the firing pin from protruding from the
firing pin stop would be just that, a weak spring. It would not effect the sear, mainspring etc. or the action of the
safety devices or cause the 1911 to automatically fire on it's own. Do I think it's possible for a gun to be thrown
or dropped hard enough to cause it to fire? Yes, I do. That's why some guys that carry a revolver have the hammer
down on a empty cylinder chamber. Among other reasons, that is also why most guys carry C&L's. A live round
chambered and the hammer OFF (cocked) the firing pin. FP block on a Makarov, Bersa, etc. etc. etc. fine. On a
1911? Only necessary to satisfy lawyers.

[Liberty]

and if you don't understand your gun I don't think you should be carrying it ...just saying.

The FP block on a gun with a decocking lever is NOT the same thing as a FP safety on a 1911.
The FP safety device on a 1911 is deactivated by applying pressure to the grip safety. That allows
the little pin to drop free from the indentation/groove on the bottom of the slide and drop into the recess in the top of the frame.
A 1911 has a thumb safety and a grip safety already installed. Both must must deactivated
in order for the pistol to fire. A firing pin spring too weak to keep the end of the firing pin from protruding from the
firing pin stop would be just that, a weak spring. It would not effect the sear, mainspring etc. or the action of the
safety devices or cause the 1911 to automatically fire on it's own. Do I think it's possible for a gun to be thrown
or dropped hard enough to cause it to fire? Yes, I do. That's why some guys that carry a revolver have the hammer
down on a empty cylinder chamber. Among other reasons, that is also why most guys carry C&L's. A live round
chambered and the hammer OFF (cocked) the firing pin. FP block on a Makarov, Bersa, etc. etc. etc. fine. On a
1911? Only necessary to satisfy lawyers.

I don't wish to enter a religous debate.
The block is about preventing the pin from moving forward independant of the hammer comming down. You may not feel that a dropped gun going off is a big deal. I do. It has happened and been discussed on the forum. Where a forum member had a Rock Island Armory 1911. fall from its holster on a concrete floor from waist high.

I am not a 1911 expert so I may not get this right.
The manual lever blocks the trigger group from releasing the hammer
The grip Safety prevents the hammer from falling neither of these safetys prevent the firing pin from moving forward. This is the function of the firing pin block. Without a firing pin block a shock to the gun could cause the firing pin to move forward with enough force to cause the gun to discharge. all without the trigger being pulled and the hammer going down.

It is possible to get light weight firing pins (titanium) that won't be able to develop the same inertia or springs that opffer a little more resistance.

I the lawyers are worried about the same thing we are. If a gun goes off when it isn't supposed to someone can get hurt or killed. I beleve that I have more lose than the insurance companies because it could be someone I care about that gets killed.

I do believe we can both agree that a 1911 is not very likely to go off if dropped. The question remains, "What level of risk are we to accept? " While I would have no problem with owning and taking these style guns to the range. I believe it is a bit to much risk to carrying these 24/7 It seems reasonble to expect a gun to be able to take as much physical abuse as I am subject to without the gun shooting me. Handling a 4 foot drop onto concrete doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation.. YMMV

[Plato]

and if you don't understand your gun I don't think you should be carrying it ...just saying.

The FP block on a gun with a decocking lever is NOT the same thing as a FP safety on a 1911.
The FP safety device on a 1911 is deactivated by applying pressure to the grip safety. That allows
the little pin to drop free from the indentation/groove on the bottom of the slide and drop into the recess in the top of the frame.
A 1911 has a thumb safety and a grip safety already installed. Both must must deactivated
in order for the pistol to fire. A firing pin spring too weak to keep the end of the firing pin from protruding from the
firing pin stop would be just that, a weak spring. It would not effect the sear, mainspring etc. or the action of the
safety devices or cause the 1911 to automatically fire on it's own. Do I think it's possible for a gun to be thrown
or dropped hard enough to cause it to fire? Yes, I do. That's why some guys that carry a revolver have the hammer
down on a empty cylinder chamber. Among other reasons, that is also why most guys carry C&L's. A live round
chambered and the hammer OFF (cocked) the firing pin. FP block on a Makarov, Bersa, etc. etc. etc. fine. On a
1911? Only necessary to satisfy lawyers.

Okay, its been awhile since I owned my Series 80 Colts... But I'm pretty sure the Firing Pin Block was deactivated only when the trigger was pulled rather than when the grip safety was pressed as you said above. On a Series 80 Colt, pressing the grip safety had no effect on the Firing Pin Block.

The FPB was added to the Series 80 pistols to hold the firing pin in place until the trigger was pulled -soas to prevent the Firing Pin from bouncing forward into a live primer if the gun was dropped muzzle down.

Granted, those 1911s without the FPB were not really a problem with a good strong Firing Pin Spring -which would hold the Firing Pin away from the primer if the gun was dropped.

Regarding to OP, I would start digging deep on the exact details of this "accident" -it would not be unheard of for a fellow to say he dropped a gun rather than admit he had a major brain lock and just let one go

[lunchbox]

well if you saw the holes and how they were placed you would see how its not that one was just let go and i have seen him drop the gun before and told him to be careful but now i think the lesson is learned. i will try and find a better FP and FP spring to help with this problem again this is a house gun not a carry gun


now any idea who has parts and mags for said gun

[gemini]

Liberty ..."I do believe we can both agree that a 1911 is not very likely to go off if dropped. The question remains, "What level of risk are we to accept? " While I would have no problem with owning and taking these style guns to the range. I believe it is a bit to much risk to carrying these 24/7 It seems reasonble to expect a gun to be able to take as much physical abuse as I am subject to without the gun shooting me. Handling a 4 foot drop onto concrete doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation.. YMMV"

Agreed, a 1911 is not very likely to go off if dropped. Level of risk? I've carried 1911's for years, not only to the range but on my person.
I still say, it's one of the safest, if not the safest, auto pistol ever designed.

Plato..."But I'm pretty sure the Firing Pin Block was deactivated only when the trigger was pulled rather than when the grip safety was pressed as you said above. On a Series 80 Colt, pressing the grip safety had no effect on the Firing Pin Block."

Pull the trigger without depressing the grip safety and what happens in a properly functioning 1911? Colt and shwartz systems vary in design, but agreed the pin was designed to prevent the FP from moving forward in both cases.


If you've never had the pleasure to shoot a well tuned 1911, I believe you've missed one of the joys in life. If you're personally
not comfortable carrying a gun design with a 100 yr history of safety, service and performance then please avoid it. Find what you are
personally comfortable with risk-wise, accuracy-wise, ability-wise to handle and shoot safely. I personally will continue to carry both series 70 and 80 1911's as my primary defensive handguns.

[Skiprr]

You might be able to fins some CZ-52 parts here: http://www.surplusfirearms.com/store/.

Has he got that one chambered in the original 7.62x25, or is it converted to a 9mm. Just curious.

Just a quick clarification on the 1911 issue. To be correct, we should refer to Colt 1911s as "pre-Series 70" (anything made before the design change in 1971), "Series 70," and "Series 80," introduced in 1983. All the Series 80 pistols incorporated the Colt firing pin block that used a series of internal levers and a pin, or plunger, to positively block the firing pin until the trigger was pressed. So Plato gets the point here.

But wait. So does Gemini. Because, while some 1911 clone manufacturers (Para, Taurus, and SIG, for example) use basically the same Colt firing pin block system, Kimber and S&W chose to go a slightly different route with the so-called Schwartz safety. This is a firing pin block that is (arguably) mechanically simpler than the original Colt version, and is deactivated by pressing the grip safety, not by pulling the trigger.

All that said, most of the rest of the 1911 pistols manufactured today (you can include your high-end Wilson, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, et al. in here) are, design-wise, "pre-Series 70" (with the exception of a few updated changes, like the half-cock notch). That's because they don't use the somewhat short-lived "collet" bushing that was the distinctive feature of the Series 70, nor do they use any type of firing pin block a la a Series 80.

I have no problem trusting a modern, quality, "pre-Series 70" model. If you'll give me one of these http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_tactical_ ... ompact.asp, I'll happily carry it all the time!

[WildBill]

Of course, the secret of avoiding this situation is to never drop your gun.
I have only done this only once, and it was after I got my CHL. The gun was in a holster and I picked it up by grabbing the holster rather than by the pistol handle. The gun slid out of the holster and landed on the ground. Ever since then I have changed my method of picking up a holstered gun.

[gemini]

although I tried to imply the difference in the 2 FP systems, I failed miserably to explain. Thank you
Skiprr for a well worded explanation.

Skiprr....."I have no problem trusting a modern, quality, "pre-Series 70" model. If you'll give me one of these http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_tactical_ ... ompact.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I'll happily carry it all the time!"

or NH, Baer, Brown,.....I will readily admit you have picked quality over quantity and Wilson is an excellent choice.
Let me know when Santa Claus delivers one to you.