No 51% but....

[Kevinf2349]

OK so today my wife and I were out and about (both carrying) and we happened across a strange thing.

We were on the North Shore of Clear Lake (on Nasa Road) and we saw some vintage vehicles and decided to stop and take a look. As it was a lovely day and the breeze was blowing off the lake we walked around for a while and we saw a bar called "The turtle Club'. It is a floating structure with an outdoor walk-around patio. We walked around it and we didn't see a single 51% sign, a gun busters or a 30.06 sign. I would be extremely surprised if it didn't fall into the 51% category, but it didn't post one that one could see from the outside. I don't believe it was a private club but I didn't even try to go into it.

This leads to several questions for me.

a) If it isn't posted, even though it is obviously a 51% establishment, are they breaking the law?
b) Does the fact the establishment is a floating structure effect any of the statutes?
c) Did we commit a crime by walking around the building while carrying? (as we were actually onboard so to speak)

Thoughts?

[joe817]

I think Steve R. should answer that question. I'd be hesitant to answer that one.

[C-dub]

I'll take a crack at it and wait for confirmation.

a. I'm not sure about them "breaking" the law, but I think they are not following it.
b. If it is a business it shouldn't matter.
c. Yes. However, as of 9.1.9 it is a defense to prosecution if the business failed to notify you with the proper display of a 51% sign.

[srothstein]

Yes, if they are not posting the proper signage, they are in violation of the Alcoholic Beverage Code or the Government Code (depending which sign they should have). TABC will write the permittee up for this.

The floating business makes it kind of hard. I would be willing to bet there was some other business that had the actual license and proabbly the main bar. For example, If I open a restaurant on the dock, I have a physical structure that can be licensed. If I then open a second floating bar tethered in my part of the lake, it is (probably) legal and would be covered by the main license. I know some of the waterparks have floating bars in some of their pools and I think the law would apply the same way (the lake itself may make a difference since it is not necessarily owned by the same person).

You probably did not commit a crime, but you have a good defense if you did. The law on what is the licensed premises has a conflict. The Penal Code says the premises are just the building. The Alcoholic Beverage Code defines the licensed premises as the whole property, including any parking lot or parts not specifically excluded. The old case law went with the Alcoholic Beverage Code definition but I do not know if there has been any test cases since premises was redefined in the Penal Code. In addition to this confusion giving you a defense, there is the legal defense that went into effect on Sep. 1 that says you have a defense if the signs are not properly posted. Under that law, it is still a crime to carry in a 51% place, but if you can show in the trial that the signs were not properly posted, you win. So, your walking around wa snot something to worry about this time.

[Tireshred]

I've been to the Turtle Club and never saw a 51% either, I believe it's a stand alone business, no land based part that I know of, but it does serve food, typical bar food, so I don't know if it's a 51% or not, but my guess it is. I haven't been since Ike though and before I got a CHL, but I remember looking and not seeing a sign. The bar is centrally located on the "boat" and no one sits there, everyone goes to the railing for the sights and breeze, maybe the bar has the sign, which would be a defense to prosecution, not that I would want to test that.

[C-dub]

Well, I was close.

[Kevinf2349]

I found another one!

"Noah's Ark" in Bacliffe. It is a 'biker bar' type place (which does excellent breakfasts btw )

It was displaying no 51% nor any gun buster or 30.06. It is a grill but I would have been surpirsed if it didn't do more than 51% across the bar. Admittedly it was breakfast time and the place was very busy just selling food while I was there but on an evening the beer usually flows like a river!

I carried in there as it was only breakfast and no signs were posted. Is there a way of telling if a place is a 51% establishment if it isn't posted? I do worry when a place I think should be posted actually isn't.

Did I do the right thing in carrying in there?

[srothstein]

There are only two ways to be sure. You can ask to see the license. It will have a line printed on it saying "sign=red" if it is 51% and "sign=blue" if it is not 51%. Or you can call your local TABC office and ask them to check the records.

The third way is sure in one direction and only under certain circumstances. You can look in the TABC public inquiry system, asking for a list of all licenses in a county (or city). If you see the bar listed and it has "FB" listed as a subordinate license, there is no wya it can be 51%. The FB (food and beverage) certificate is only available to someplace if it gets 51% from food. Not having it does not mean the place is 51% since it is totally optional (there are a few advantages to getting it but not enough to justify it to a lot of people). And since FB is only available to someone who sells liquor, a beer and wine or beer only cannot have it.

[The Annoyed Man]

There are only two ways to be sure. You can ask to see the license. It will have a line printed on it saying "sign=red" if it is 51% and "sign=blue" if it is not 51%. Or you can call your local TABC office and ask them to check the records.

The third way is sure in one direction and only under certain circumstances. You can look in the TABC public inquiry system, asking for a list of all licenses in a county (or city). If you see the bar listed and it has "FB" listed as a subordinate license, there is no wya it can be 51%. The FB (food and beverage) certificate is only available to someplace if it gets 51% from food. Not having it does not mean the place is 51% since it is totally optional (there are a few advantages to getting it but not enough to justify it to a lot of people). And since FB is only available to someone who sells liquor, a beer and wine or beer only cannot have it.

I want to clarify this, because a twice monthly Chamber of Commerce networking meeting I have been attending for a while now is being moved to a new location. I've run a list as you suggested, and this location shows "CB,LB,PE" but no "FB." This would be problematic for me.

OTH, I've just checked the "restaurant" where we've been meeting for the past year and half, and it shows "CB,FB,LB,PE" with no FB. I've assumed all along that it was not a 51% establishment, and I've been carrying in there all along (the chamber meetings are upstairs in one of the banquet rooms). The only signage I've ever seen there is the "no unlicensed possession of a handgun allowed" variety posted at the front and back doors. For north Tarrant County area residents, I'm referring to Wilhoite's on Main street in Grapevine. The place the meeting is being moved to is Chill, at the corner of Main and Dallas Rd.

[aardwolf]

Like Steve said, FB means it's not a 51% premise but no FB tells us nothing.

[dicion]

Like Steve said, FB means it's not a 51% premise but no FB tells us nothing.

I've seen too many people get confused by this.. let me try to simplify it....
Consider a 'FB' on the website, like a NRA Sticker on a car. (just for simplicity's sake, go with it)

If a car has a NRA Sticker on it.. It has a NRA supporter in it.
If a license on the TABC website has a 'FB', is is NOT 51%, guaranteed

If a car does NOT have a NRA Sticker on it, it doesn't mean that the driver isn't a NRA supporter, just that he or she didn't put a sticker on their car.
If a license on the TABC website does not have a 'FB', it doesn't mean that the location is or is not 51%, just that the business owner didn't apply for a FB Permit.

A requirement to get the FB permit is that it cannot be a 51% Alcohol location.

[flyboyshell]

Hi Guys,

Just for clarification. I went to check out a flick the other day Alamo Draft House, I was carrying and made an effort to check for the 30.06 and the 51% signage. I did not see either, but I did see the following "The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine of not to exceed $10,000."

Since it said "the unlicensed possession" am I still allowed to carry on premises? I am licensed so I guess I am?

[Pete92FS]

Hi Guys,

Just for clarification. I went to check out a flick the other day Alamo Draft House, I was carrying and made an effort to check for the 30.06 and the 51% signage. I did not see either, but I did see the following "The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine of not to exceed $10,000."

Since it said "the unlicensed possession" am I still allowed to carry on premises? I am licensed so I guess I am?

You are good to go. That's the sign you want to see if you have a CHL.