Show your ID

[marksiwel]

Got a knock on the door today, apparently my old Apartment used to be rented by some dirt bag, it was some State police agency, the officer asked for my ID when I opened the door (I was not armed, but there was a gun out of sight, but in reach.

I gave him my DL and CHL, he told me "You dont look like Gabriel Alvarez" thanked me, and went of his way.

Now for arguments sake, did I have to show him my ID, inside of my own House? Or say I was in a Store and Carrying, do I have to show him my ID? What if I'm not carrying?

[ScottDLS]

Got a knock on the door today, apparently my old Apartment used to be rented by some dirt bag, it was some State police agency, the officer asked for my ID when I opened the door (I was not armed, but there was a gun out of sight, but in reach.

I gave him my DL and CHL, he told me "You dont look like Gabriel Alvarez" thanked me, and went of his way.

Now for arguments sake, did I have to show him my ID, inside of my own House? Or say I was in a Store and Carrying, do I have to show him my ID? What if I'm not carrying?

Interesting question. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure you aren't required to answer the door, identify yourself, or engage in conversation with a police officer when you're in your own home, absent a warrant or other cause for them to enter (and I don't think looking for a bad guy who mighta once lived there counts).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I wouldn't...just that you don't have to. In my Town, I recognize the uniforms and badges of the Town police and would probably assist them if they asked, including producing identification. Whether you have to show your CHL when asked for ID depends on whether you are "carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's (your) person" to use the GC 411.205 definition. Whether you are in your house or out and about, the rule seems to apply, so if it's on the table next to you you probably should. If it's in your bedroom locked in the quick access gunsafe, perhaps not. I'll point out that there is no penalty for NOT showing CHL, but the law says you should. If you're out in public there are circumstances in which a police officer may lawfully detain you and REQUIRE you to truthfully identify yourself, but my understanding is this is somewhat uncommon.

[gigag04]

You don't ever have to talk to the police or ID yourself unless you've been arrested. (exception driving - you must present a driver's license...)

If you've been arrested you have to give Name, Address, and DOB.

[A-R]

You don't ever have to talk to the police or ID yourself unless you've been arrested. (exception driving - you must present a driver's license...)

If you've been arrested you have to give Name, Address, and DOB.

Be careful with such a broad statement as you give above. While on the surface, I agree with you. And certainly believe this is how it should be, I just stumbled upon this while discussing a "show your ID" scenario in another thread ...

Here is the relevant Penal Code we all know and cite:

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

(1) lawfully arrested the person;

(2) lawfully detained the person; or

(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

And here is a scenario that popped up in a Q/A found in a Google search about requirements to show ID. Granted it's a college situation, so concealed carry is definitely off limits there by statute. But the general scenario is the same. If not arrested/detained, we would think "I don't have to show you ID" ... this university police chief sees it differently, citing a different law I'd never heard of before.

Point is, you and I don't know every little statute in Texas. AS FAR AS I KNOW there may be other statutes like this. I AM NOT A LAWYER.

And let's not forget, "failure to identify" is what started the whole brew-ha-ha (mispelling intentional ) between the cop and the professor that finally ended up with a beer sit down with President Obama.

http://prtl.uhcl.edu/portal/page/portal ... f%20%20FAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q. Am I required to show identification to a UHCL Police Officer upon request?

A. Yes. In fact, per Texas Education Code, Section 51.209, identification may be required of any person on university property. Furthermore, any staff or faculty of the university may require you to show identification. It should also be known that failure to show identification upon request from a Police Officer is a citable and/or arresting offense.

And here is the statute this police chief cites (emphasis added by me):

Sec. 51.209. UNAUTHORIZED PERSONS; REFUSAL OF ENTRY, EJECTION, IDENTIFICATION. The governing board of a state institution of higher education or its authorized representatives may refuse to allow persons having no legitimate business to enter on property under the board's control, and may eject any undesirable person from the property on his refusal to leave peaceably on request. Identification may be required of any person on the property.

[Keith B]

You don't ever have to talk to the police or ID yourself unless you've been arrested. (exception driving - you must present a driver's license...)

If you've been arrested you have to give Name, Address, and DOB.

Be careful with such a broad statement as you give above. While on the surface, I agree with you. And certainly believe this is how it should be, I just stumbled upon this while discussing a "show your ID" scenario in another thread ...

Here is the relevant Penal Code we all know and cite:

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

(1) lawfully arrested the person;

(2) lawfully detained the person; or

(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

And here is a scenario that popped up in a Q/A found in a Google search about requirements to show ID. Granted it's a college situation, so concealed carry is definitely off limits there by statute. But the general scenario is the same. If not arrested/detained, we would think "I don't have to show you ID" ... this university police chief sees it differently, citing a different law I'd never heard of before.

Point is, you and I don't know every little statute in Texas. AS FAR AS I KNOW there may be other statutes like this. I AM NOt A LAWYER.

http://prtl.uhcl.edu/portal/page/portal ... f%20%20FAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q. Am I required to show identification to a UHCL Police Officer upon request?

A. Yes. In fact, per Texas Education Code, Section 51.209, identification may be required of any person on university property. Furthermore, any staff or faculty of the university may require you to show identification. It should also be known that failure to show identification upon request from a Police Officer is a citable and/or arresting offense.

And here is the statute this police chief cites (emphasis added by me):

Sec. 51.209. UNAUTHORIZED PERSONS; REFUSAL OF ENTRY, EJECTION, IDENTIFICATION. The governing board of a state institution of higher education or its authorized representatives may refuse to allow persons having no legitimate business to enter on property under the board's control, and may eject any undesirable person from the property on his refusal to leave peaceably on request. Identification may be required of any person on the property.

[/quote]


You have two different scenarios here:

1. Once you have been aressted, THEN you must provide the information. up to the point you are arrested, then you don't have to provide it. And, legally unless he has probable cause, he can't arrest you.

2. That is required on campus property, not anywhere else, so unless you are on a university property, you don't have to show it. Actually, you don't have to show it, they can just refuse you entry or eject you from the campus property. if you refuse to leave, then you can be charged with tresspassing.

[A-R]

You have two different scenarios here:

1. Once you have been aressted, THEN you must provide the information. up to the point you are arrested, then you don't have to provide it. And, legally unless he has probable cause, he can't arrest you.

2. That is required on campus property, not anywhere else, so unless you are on a university property, you don't have to show it. Actually, you don't have to show it, they can just refuse you entry or eject you from the campus property. if you refuse to leave, then you can be charged with tresspassing.

Keith, yes I realize I am citing two different scenarios. Sorry for the confusion. But my point was - unless this UHCL police chief is dead wrong - he is citing a scenario in which he claims you could be arrested, merely for failure to show ID.

It should also be known that failure to show identification upon request from a Police Officer is a citable and/or arresting offense.

And yes this scenario is ONLY on a university campus. Not saying this applies directly or indirectly to an LEO asking for your ID in your own home. But I was on university campuses for the better part of 6 years and had never heard of this. And for much of that time my "home" was my university dorm room (sometimes year-round, even during summers etc.) My point was merely that none of us know ALL of the laws/scenarios.

[Keith B]

You have two different scenarios here:

1. Once you have been aressted, THEN you must provide the information. up to the point you are arrested, then you don't have to provide it. And, legally unless he has probable cause, he can't arrest you.

2. That is required on campus property, not anywhere else, so unless you are on a university property, you don't have to show it. Actually, you don't have to show it, they can just refuse you entry or eject you from the campus property. if you refuse to leave, then you can be charged with tresspassing.

Keith, yes I realize I am citing two different scenarios. Sorry for the confusion. But my point was - unless this UHCL police chief is dead wrong - he is citing a scenario in which he claims you could be arrested, merely for failure to show ID.

It should also be known that failure to show identification upon request from a Police Officer is a citable and/or arresting offense.

And yes this scenario is ONLY on a university campus. Not saying this applies directly or indirectly to an LEO asking for your ID in your own home. But I was on university campuses for the better part of 6 years and had never heard of this. And for much of that time my "home" was my university dorm room (sometimes year-round, even during summers etc.) My point was merely that none of us know ALL of the laws/scenarios.

The education code is the only place I am aware of this exists. Unless there is probable cause to arrest you, then they legitimately couldn't, but could ask you to leave. IANAUHCL. LOL

And, as I stated, off of campus property, until you are arrested, you don't have to provide the information. That is why you ask the LEO if you are being arrested. If not, then you should be free to move on unless he has reasonable suspicion to detain you, followed with probable cause for arrest.

[03Lightningrocks]

The education code is the only place I am aware of this exists. Unless there is probable cause to arrest you, then they legitimately couldn't, but could ask you to leave. IANAUHCL. LOL

And, as I stated, off of campus property, until you are arrested, you don't have to provide the information. That is why you ask the LEO if you are being arrested. If not, then you should be free to move on unless he has reasonable suspicion to detain you, followed with probable cause for arrest.

Please apply this same response to the "other" thread also. Believe it or not I got worn out on that thread. There is a scenario I was asked for my ID in my own home. My monitored alarm system went off without my knowledge. The horn had broken. the Police showed up in my front and back yard at the same time...LOL. They requested my ID so they would know I was suppose to be there. I complied... . Oh...and I did not show them my CHL... or tell them that I had enough weapons and ammo in my home to start a military type coup.

Again...these situations are very different than an officer just picking you out of the crowd in public for a random Nazi Germany style "papers check".

[chabouk]

There is never any situation (other than driving, or carrying a concealed handgun with your CHL) where it's a crime to not have a state-issued ID, thus it's not possible for it to ever be a crime to not present an ID card.

A requirement to identify yourself when under arrest is not the same as requiring you to present identification. The first can be satisfied by saying "I am Joe Blow, of Anytown Texas." The latter could result in you being a criminal any time you lose your wallet.

As for traffic stops, you're already "under arrest" if you're the driver. I don't remember all the legal details, but when I was reading the archives way back when, I think it was srothstein who explained how that works.

[RPB]

There is never any situation (other than driving, or carrying a concealed handgun with your CHL) where it's a crime to not have a state-issued ID, thus it's not possible for it to ever be a crime to not present an ID card.

A requirement to identify yourself when under arrest is not the same as requiring you to present identification. The first can be satisfied by saying "I am Joe Blow, of Anytown Texas." The latter could result in you being a criminal any time you lose your wallet.

As for traffic stops, you're already "under arrest" if you're the driver. I don't remember all the legal details, but when I was reading the archives way back when, I think it was srothstein who explained how that works.

Note TPWD says on their site "upon demand" while Parks and Wildlife Code says "a person who is arrested" but explain that to a Game Warden..... (I actually knew of a kayaker cited for not having his DL and fishing license on the boat with him and not displaying them to the Game Warden ... they were back in the car)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/warden/cour ... ther.phtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
7201 Fail/refuse to display D.L. or personal I.D. required by PWC 12.114 upon demand (PWC) 12.115
Offense: Fail/refuse to display D.L. or personal I.D. required by PWC 12.114 upon demand
(PWC = Parks and Wildlife Code)

(It's really kind of a "tack this on too" charge for a person already arrested.)

Realted to fishing/hunting licenses/activities: (What's funny is it doesn't apply to people who are under 17)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PW.12.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 12.114. DRIVER'S LICENSE OR PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CERTIFICATE REQUIRED. (a) A person who is 17 years of age or older and who has a license or permit issued under this code or who is engaging in an activity that requires a license or permit shall have a driver's license or personal identification certificate in the person's immediate possession.
(b) If the person is a resident as defined by Subdivision (1) of Section 42.001 of this code, "driver's license" and "personal identification certificate" have the meanings assigned by Chapter 521, Transportation Code.
(c) If the person is a nonresident as defined by Section 42.001, "driver's license" and "personal identification certificate" mean those documents that are similar to those defined in Subsection (b) and that are issued by the agency in the state or country of which the person is a resident that is authorized to issue driver's licenses or personal identification certificates.
Added by Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 267, art. 1, Sec. 32, eff. Sept. 1, 1985. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 30.232, eff. Sept. 1, 1997; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1256, Sec. 10, eff. Sept. 1, 1997.

Sec. 12.115. OFFENSE. (a) A person who is arrested for an alleged violation of this code or a proclamation or regulation adopted under this code commits an offense if the person:
(1) does not have in his immediate possession a driver's license or personal identification certificate required by Section 12.114 of this code; or
(2) fails or refuses to display the driver's license or personal identification certificate required by Section 12.114 of this code when requested to do so by any peace officer, game warden, magistrate, or officer of a court of competent jurisdiction.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class C Parks and Wildlife Code misdemeanor.
Added by Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 267, art. 1, Sec. 32, eff. Sept. 1, 1985.

[Abraham]

Was he in uniform?

If not, I'd ask for HIS I.D.

[bizarrenormality]

What does it matter if he's in uniform? If we're supposed to assume he's police because he's wearing a uniform, he should assume we're the homeowner because we're inside the house. I will be happy to show my ID after he shows his.

[marksiwel]

What does it matter if he's in uniform? If we're supposed to assume he's police because he's wearing a uniform, he should assume we're the homeowner because we're inside the house. I will be happy to show my ID after he shows his.

Heck I have enough 5.11 Pants and Shirts of different colors, I'm sure I have a Black Pant and Black shirt that would pass for a Cop uniform.

[srothstein]

As a general rule, you do not have to answer the police or produce any identification. If you are under arrest, you must identify yourself by name age and date of birth. If you are a suspect, material witness, or legally detained, it is illegal to lie about your identify, but not to refuse to answer. This is all under Penal Code 38.02, Failure to Identify.

When you are driving a motor vehicle on publicly maintained property (I love that because it is not just public streets like most of us think), you must present your DL when stopped. This was long the law, but it is now justifiable under the Court of Criminal Appeals decision in Kurtz. This is the case that said that a traffic stop is an arrest. Note that the SCOTUS now feels the same way based on their decision recently (last year or year before) that a passenger in a car may also challenge the stop since he would not feel he is free to leave (the legal definition of arrest from SCOTUS). As an aside, i will point out that the case must be dismissed if you do show the DL to the magistrate in the court.

You are also required to show your DL/ID and your CHL when you are carrying, but the penalty for failure to so is is gone. I normally do not consider things with no penalty to be against the law even though I recognize the technical answer is that the violation still exists.

I was also aware that you had to have your ID with you when hunting, though most of the Game Wardens I know are more interested in your hunting/fishing license than your DL.

I was unaware of the requirement in the Education Code. Reading that section, it is clear to me that if you are on a college campus and are asked to identify yourself, you must do so. Identification may be required means the officer may require it but does not have to. If you look a little earlier in the EC, section 51.202 makes it a class C misdemeanor (punishable by a fine of up to $200) to violate that law. it does not require you to produce your DL or any other ID, but you would have to answer the questions of who you are. This is a new one for me.

But the special cases are not relevant to the OP. When you are in your own home, you are not required to answer the door, open the door, talk to the officer, or show the officer any ID. If he has a warrant (or probabale cause and the right exigent circumstances) he will force the entry or answers, but without that, you do not have to cooperate at all.

[ninemm]

What does it matter if he's in uniform? If we're supposed to assume he's police because he's wearing a uniform, he should assume we're the homeowner because we're inside the house. I will be happy to show my ID after he shows his.

That's my strategy. You show me yours and I'll show you mine.