California shootout

[VoiceofReason]

I just saw the California shootout for what seems like the 50th time. You know the one where the bank robbers had body armor and fully automatic rifles. Every time I see it I think how needless it was.

Every one of those patrol cars probably had a 12 Ga. Shotgun. If each one had an interchangeable long barrel and a couple of boxes of slugs they could have ended that shootout quickly. I could change barrels in about 20 to 30 seconds and reload in about the same amount of time.

Granted, the slugs probably would not have penetrated the body armor, but that many firing would have knocked the guy down and rolled him over and over until one of the slugs found an opening in the body armor.

Any way you look at it, it would have been better than 9mm pistols while waiting for SWAT.

After seeing this video that many times, I just had to express my opinion to folks that would understand.

[SQLGeek]

From what I understand, the North Hollywood Shootout is one of the incidents that led to rifles becoming more common in patrol vehicles.

[nitrogen]

Did you know where the police got the hardware they eventually repelled those criminals with?

[marksiwel]

Did you know where the police got the hardware they eventually repelled those criminals with?

gun store

[mctowalot]

A few things I never understood about this incident:
*The badguys took muscle relaxants prior to entering the bank - why not a stimulant?
*Getaway vehicle was a Chevy Celebrity - why not sommething more tank-like?
*If PD was willing to drive right up and engage the one attempting to "steal" the small pickup, why didn't they just ram the truck with the police car and "squish" or run over the badguy?
Thoughts?
FYI: youtube search "North Hollywood Shootout" for the footage

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Tonight, the History Channel replayed the history of the M16,
including the North Hollywood bank shootout.

The BG's were carrying AK-47's, M16's, and some kind of pistols.
Their total round count when they embarked on the day's evildoing
was 3300.

The mistake they made is that they were spotted walking towards the
bank armed by LAPD, who had time to call in backup. Most bank robbers
should only be in a bank a minimal amount of time, but these guys were
in the bank for EIGHT minutes.

IMHO, the reaon the SWAT team guys didn't smash their unit into the Jeep pickup
truck to "squish" the bad guy is that they needed to bail from their unit
quickly since the BG was ready to rock his M16 at them. The story said
that his M16 was equipped with a 200 round ammo supply. Is that possible?

This incident lead to many PD's equipping their LEO's with AR-15/M16's.

At the distances that the officers were from the BG's at the bank site, the
shotgun scenarion envisioned by a poster above doesn't seem that effective.

SIA

[M9FAN]

Tonight, the History Channel replayed the history of the M16,
including the North Hollywood bank shootout.SIA

Watched this last night, too. Good program!

[VoiceofReason]

Tonight, the History Channel replayed the history of the M16,
including the North Hollywood bank shootout.

The BG's were carrying AK-47's, M16's, and some kind of pistols.
Their total round count when they embarked on the day's evildoing
was 3300.

The mistake they made is that they were spotted walking towards the
bank armed by LAPD, who had time to call in backup. Most bank robbers
should only be in a bank a minimal amount of time, but these guys were
in the bank for EIGHT minutes.

IMHO, the reaon the SWAT team guys didn't smash their unit into the Jeep pickup
truck to "squish" the bad guy is that they needed to bail from their unit
quickly since the BG was ready to rock his M16 at them. The story said
that his M16 was equipped with a 200 round ammo supply. Is that possible?

This incident lead to many PD's equipping their LEO's with AR-15/M16's.

At the distances that the officers were from the BG's at the bank site, the
shotgun scenarion envisioned by a poster above doesn't seem that effective.

SIA

It appears to me these guys didn’t want to rob the bank as much as they wanted a shootout. They put more planning and effort into the shootout than they did robbing the bank and getting away.

A 12 Ga. with a standard length barrel and slugs would have had an adequate range and punch for this.

As I said it probably would not have penetrated the body armor but it probably would have knocked them down. The hit would have been along the lines of getting hit in the chest with the butt of a shotgun.

[shortysboy09]

As I said it probably would not have penetrated the body armor but it probably would have knocked them down. The hit would have been along the lines of getting hit in the chest with the butt of a shotgun.

More likely, it wouldn't have knocked anyone down unless they were off-balance. But let's assume you're right and they fell down - so what? That won't take anyone out of a fight - penetration is required.

How about a .308?

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg[/youtube]

What USA1 was saying is maybe if they did fall down the follow-up slugs could find an opening in the armor.

[VoiceofReason]

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I sure would like to try some of this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HK9IcN734I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksDWEB3MaYs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WarHawk-AVG]

I have heard that the "force" of a bullet is somewhere around the same as the force of a baseball or softball thrown at you at full force, the only caveat is the force ends up expending INSIDE your body and vitals instead of just smacking you on the outside and hurting alot...shotgun slug against the armor they had would probably have bent the plating and mushroomed the slug but it wouldn't knock the person down. I have seen 3/4" steel plating just get bent and tossed around from slug hits..I have seen mid velocity rifle ammo put a massive crater in it and have seen others pass right thru it. My bet for defeating body armor is high velocity, not high mass slow speed. (thus the 5.7 they refer to as "cop killers" because the high velocity can defeat body armor better than a slow moving .45acp ball round)

I bet however a headshot would have "rung his bell" so to speak, other good spots are the joints...hit him with a slug over his kneecap and oh boy won't wanna play much anymore.

7.62x51 NATO AP rounds vs steel


Here is what happens when you shoot 5/16″ steel plate with various rifle rounds from 25 yards. [mild steel plate — structural, for welding]

On the left is a 69 grain BTHP .223 with a velocity of roughly 2600fps; it fails to penetrate the plate. Next is the impact from a 55 grain FMJ .223 (about 3100fps) which punches clean through. I even found the divot it knocked out, which I placed below the hole for the picture. On the far right is the hole left by a 150gr FMJ .308 bullet.


Here is a view from the back of the plate.


OOPS..sorry for the big pics

I would bet someone with a M1 Garand and M2 Ball ammo (w/ steel insert) could have wrecked those weazels day really quick

[USA1]

What USA1 was saying is maybe if they did fall down the follow-up slugs could find an opening in the armor.

Just to clarify, I haven't posted in this thread...until now that is.

[VoiceofReason]

Check the first link I posted. I didn’t know they made armor piercing or exploding shotgun shells. How well they work, I don’t know.

I suppose we could continue this “arms race” until we got to a howitzer.

My point was that the shotgun that most patrol cars carry could be quickly converted to a standard length barrel and loaded with ammo that would do the job.

Most patrol cars (at least the ones I drove) did not have a .308, .223 or 50 Cal in the trunk. Although there were times I wished they did.

[WarHawk-AVG]

I bet a LEO could get away with a M1 Garand or M1 Carbine faster than he could a M4..they are "less scary" to the anti-gun folks