1911 Q's: 1. Any JMB patents? 2. Magazine compatibility.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

JMB created the 1911 and there are currently many
brands of 1911's that can be bought.

Did JMB patent this weapon?
If so, is the patent still in force?
Do gunmakers have to pay royalties to Colt, or someone,
when they make their own brand of 1911?

Some 1911's are 7 + 1, some are 8 + 1.
As long as the mags are the correct 7 or 8 round capacity,
are all mags compatible as to size in order that they will
operate in various brands of 1911's?

Thanks in advance.

SIA

[seamusTX]

I don't know specifically what Browning patents would have applied to the 1911. He had over 100 patents.

No patent issued on an invention from that period would have been in effect later than about 1940.

Colt may have had design patents on features like the shape of the grip, but again those would be long expired. Design patents weren't used much back then.

- Jim

[surprise_i'm_armed]

seamustx & Andra:

Thank you lads.

The patent date was 1911, and if the patent only
lasted 17 years, then from 1928 forward I guess anyone
has been able to make 1911's w/o having to pay any
royalties.

This is the same basic reason that Shakespeare's plays
are repeated endlessly, including some that take very
different forms. Old Will's works have passed into the
public domain.

Did anyone ever see the 1996 Romeo and Juliet movie with Leonardo
DiCaprio and Claire Danes? All the characters drove cool cars and had
awesome handguns. It was a very modern edge to an old story, but I liked it.

SIA

[seamusTX]

Good work, Andy.

In 1911, U.S. patents lasted for 17 years and could not be extended or renewed.

In the 1990s the period was changed to 20 years. A clever lawyer can double that by claiming a new use for an existing invention. That is done with drugs more often than not.

In any case, the patents on the original 1911 expired a long time ago, as did the patents on Browning's machine gun, semi-automatic shotgun, and the Hi-Power.

- Jim

[skub]

Some 1911's are 7 + 1, some are 8 + 1.
As long as the mags are the correct 7 or 8 round capacity,
are all mags compatible as to size in order that they will
operate in various brands of 1911's?

The number of rounds in the magazine do not affect the functionality of a 1911. I have a 7 round Kimber mag, 8 round Wilson Combat mags, and 10 round Wilson Combat mags for mine. The 10 round mags extend below the bottom of the grip, but function just fine.

*Edited to correct the format of the quote

[The Annoyed Man]

Some 1911's are 7 + 1, some are 8 + 1.
As long as the mags are the correct 7 or 8 round capacity,
are all mags compatible as to size in order that they will
operate in various brands of 1911's?

The number of rounds in the magazine do not affect the functionality of a 1911. I have a 7 round Kimber mag, 8 round Wilson Combat mags, and 10 round Wilson Combat mags for mine. The 10 round mags extend below the bottom of the grip, but function just fine.

Interestingly, when I first bought my 3" Kimber Ultra — which only came with one 7 round magazine — I phoned Kimber to order two more directly from them. I asked at the time about buying 8 round magazines for it instead of the standard 7 rounders, and the guy on their end of the line specifically warned me not to do that. I don't remember the exact rationale, but it had something to do with the function of the pistol after reloading because of the Ultra's shorter grip frame and the longer length of the 8 round magazine. I remember that his explanation really didn't make sense to me at the time, and on a couple of occasions at the range I've grabbed an 8 round Wilson Combat magazine and inserted it, because that was what was available that had boolits in it, and it worked just fine.

But, even though I don't remember the specific reasons stated, that warning stuck with me. So when I'm actually carrying my ultra and my life may depend on the function of the pistol, I take the 7 round magazines with me.

Has anyone else heard of this, and if so, does it have any merit?

OTH, my 5" Springfield also came with 7 round magazines, but I added a mag well and carry it with 8 round magazines, but the grip frame is longer than the Kimber's.

[mbw]

Speaking of JMB, here are his patents from the US patent office. The patents can be searched at the web site.

Number Filing Date Issue Date Description

220,271 May 12, 1879 October 7, 1879 Single Shot Rifle (Winchester model 1885
261,667 March 30, 1882 July 25, 1882 Tubular Magazine Repeating Rifle
282,839 September 13, 1882 August 7, 1883 Lever Action Repeating Rifle
306,577 May 26, 1884 October 14, 1884 Lever Action Repeating Rifle (Winchester Model 1886)
312,183 March 6, 1884 February 10, 1885 .38 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
324,296 March 5, 1885 August 11, 1885 .30 Caliber Government Lever Action Repeating Rifle
324,297 May 26, 1885 August 11, 1885 .45 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
336,287 June 15, 1885 February 16, 1886 Lever Action Repeating Shotgun (Winchester model 1887)
345,882 May 3, 1886 July 20, 1886 12 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun (x2)
356,271 September 6, 1886 January 18, 1887 10 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun (x2)
367,336 July 12, 1886 July 26, 1887 .44 Caliber Pump Action Repeating Rifle
376,576 November 21, 1887 January 17, 1888 .45 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
376,576 November 21, 1887 January 17, 1888 10 Gauge Lever Action Shotgun
385,238 December 13, 1887 June 26, 1888 Pump Action Repeating Rifle (Winchester model 1890)
417,782 January 6, 1890 March 29, 1892 Automatic Magazine Gun
417,783 August 3, 1891 March 29, 1892 gas operated machine gun
428,887 November 18, 1889 May 27, 1890 .45/70 Caliber , .44 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
441,390 June 30, 1890 November 25, 1890 Pump Action Repeating Shotgun (Winchester model 1893, 1897)
465,339 August 3, 1891 December 15, 1891 Lever Action Repeating Rifle (Winchester model 1892)
465,340 August 3, 1891 December 15, 1891 .22 Caliber Pull-Apart Repeating Rifle
471,784 August 3, 1891 March 29, 1892 machine gun
486,272 June 6, 1892 November 15, 1892 .30 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
487,659 March 7, 1892 December 6, 1892 12 Gauge Pull-Apart Shotgun
492,459 March 22, 1892 February 28, 1893 .30 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
499,005 September 19, 1892 June 6, 1893 Lever action rifle
499,005 September 19, 1892 June 6, 1893 .44 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle (w/306,577)
499,007 October 15, 1892 June 6, 1893 .30 Caliber Swing Guard Repeating Rifle
502,549 July 11, 1892 August 1,1893 gas-operated breech-loading gun
511,677 December 23, 1892 December 26, 1893 .22 Caliber Rim Fire Single Shot Rifle (x4)
524,702 January 19, 1894 August 21, 1894 Lever Action Repeating Rifle (Winchester model 1894)
543,567 April 16, 1895 July 30, 1895 Removing Unconsumed products from Gun Barrel
544,657 November 7, 1892 August 20, 1895 Automatic Machine Gun (Colt model 1895)
544,658 March 15, 1893 August 20, 1895 Gas Machine Gun
544,659 June 17, 1893 August 20, 1895 Gas Machine Gun
544,660 September 11, 1893 August 20, 1895 Gas Machine Gun
544,661 December 8, 1894 August 20,1895 experimental gas-operated firearm
545,671 April 29, 1895 September 3, 1895 .40 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
545,672 April 29, 1895 September 3, 1895 .30 Caliber Pump Action Repeating Rifle
549,345 November 19, 1894 November 5, 1895 Lever Action Repeating Rifle (Winchester model 1895)
550,778 April 29, 1895 December 3, 1895 12 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun
552,864 November 19, 1894 January 7, 1896 12 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun
577,281 March 16, 1896 February 16, 1897 12 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun
580,923 September 14, 1895 April 20, 1897 .38 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol
580,924 October 31, 1896 April 20, 1897 .38 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol (Colt model 1900)
580,925 October 31, 1896 April 20, 1897 .38 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol
580,926 October 31, 1896 April 20, 1897 .32 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol
599,595 May 5, 1897 February 22, 1898 .236 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
619,132 February 21, 1898 February 7, 1899 .30 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle (x2)
621,747 December 28, 1897 March 21, 1899 .32 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol (FN model 1900)
632,094 February 17, 1899 August 29, 1899 Bolt Action Single Shot .22 Caliber Rifle (Winchester model 1900)
659,507 February 8, 1900 October 9, 1900 Automatic Shotgun (FN, Browning, Remington, others)
659,786 June 6, 1900 October 16, 1900 Semi-Automatic High Power Rifle (Remington, FN)
678,934 June 19, 1900 July 23, 1901 Model 1917 .30 Caliber Machine Gun (Colt, Remington, Westinghouse and others)
689,283 March 18, 1901 December 17, 1901 Auto Shotgun
708,794 November 7, 1901 September 9, 1902 .38 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol
710,094 January 11, 1902 September 30, 1902 Magazine Shotgun
747,585 April 3, 1902 December 22, 1903 Model 1903 .32 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol (Colt, FN)
781,765 July 10, 1903 February 7, 1905 Pump Action Shotgun (Stevens Model 520)
812,326 June 30, 1904 February 13, 1906 Recoil Brake for Automatic Guns
947,478 June 21, 1909 January 25, 1910 .25 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol Model Vest Pocket (FN, Colt, Browning and others)
984,519 February 17, 1910 February 14, 1911 Model 1911 Government .45 Caliber Automatic Pistol (Colt, Remington and others)
1,070,582 August 23, 1913 August 19, 1913 Model 1911 Improvements, Grip safety
1,083,384 March 20, 1913 January 6, 1914 Automatic Rifle
1,143,170 November 26, 1913 June 15, 1915 Pump Action Shotgun (Remington model 17)
1,276,716 March 30, 1917 August 27, 1918 .22 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol (Colt Woodsman)
1,293,021 October 3, 1916 February 4, 1919 Recoil Machine Gun
1,293,022 August 1, 1917 February 4, 1919 Browning Automatic Rifle (B.A.R) (Colt, Winchester, Marlin-Rockwell, FN, more)
1,424,553 July 26, 1919 August 1, 1922 Pump Action .22 Caliber Repeating Rifle (FN)
1,525,065 December 15, 1923 February 3, 1925 37mm Aircraft Cannon
1,525,066 April 11, 1924 February 3, 1925 Large Caliber Automatic Firearm
1,525,067 April 28, 1924 February 3, 1925 Large Caliber Feeding Device
1,578,638 September 15, 1923 March 30, 1926 Superposed Shotgun (FN, Browning)
1,578,639 September 29, 1924 March 30, 1926 O/U Shotgun
1,618,510 June 28, 1923 February 22, 1927 9mm Parabellum Semi-Automatic Pistol (FN, Browning and others)
1,628,226 July 31, 1923 May 10, 1927 .50 Caliber Browning Water-Cooled Machine Gun (Colt and others)
1,065,341-2 November 19, 1912 June 24, 1913 Semi-Automatic .22 Caliber Rifle (FN, Remington, Browning
465, 339 August 3, 1891 December 15, 1891 .45 Caliber Lever Action Repeating Rifle
486, 273 June 27, 1892 November 15, 1892 .30 Caliber Pull-Apart Repeating Rifle (x2)

The US Patent & Trademark Office can be searched by patent number and pages downloaded for free.


http://www.uspto.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[G.A. Heath]

On a compact 1911 you want to use the compact magazines which come in 6 or 7 round capacity while on a full size you can only use the standard magazines which come in 7 or greater round capacity. The reasoning for this is that on a compact with a full size magazine there is the potential for the magazine to be inserted further into the firearm than it is designed for. This can damage the feed lips and/or slide as well as lock the gun up. In theory it can even cause ammunition to fire when the slide contacts the primer rather than the rim when returning to battery. My explanation is not the best, however for a more detailed and technically accurate explanation go to m1911.org's forums and search for posts from a fellow called 1911tuner.