Legal Signs (enforceable signs for CHLers)

[pbwalker]

I'm sorry if this comes across as callous, but I am thoroughly baffled on this one.

Every one of us (who has a CHL) took the class. You sat through hours of instruction, discussing the legal intricacies of carrying. Yet, there are threads / posts asking if this sign is legal (to carry by):


That's just one example.

There are threads asking if this sign or that sign is illegal. You attended class right? I honestly don't understand the confusion.

I'll see posts saying "I'm not sure, but just keep it concealed." - Well, isn't that what we ALWAYS do?

Please don't take this as an attack...it isn't. I just am trying to grasp my head around the confusion.

ETA: Correction to thread title

[Fangs]

My only real confusion has been about whether a legal sign is enforceable in a parking lot, since they don't really specify that in the PC.

[randomoutburst]

I am also annoyed at people who seem not to have paid attention in class. It's not that hard for me, or my husband, or most of the people on this forum to remember that the ONLY enforceable signs are 30.06 and 51% signs. Plus the restricted locations that may not be posted, of course, but honestly! And might I add...I haven't even taken the class yet!

I should add, however, that I would rather them ask here and learn things correctly, than just assume something and get in trouble. It's always worth finding out for certain, so I don't discourage those who make "Is this sign legal?" threads...but I do shake my head sadly.

[PJK]

I sat through the class and have read the PC. I feel I know what signs are legal and do not need to ask. However, I think we should all give those that are unclear a break. Personally, I am glad that there are lots of questions. The more informed the CHL holders are, the less chance one will make a mistake and become the poster child of the Brady Campaign.

The purpose of this forum is for people to learn and share information. There are many beginners out there that want to make sure they get it right. There is a lot of info in the class, so it is easy to get a bit confused. My mom, dad, teachers, clergy and friends all say that the only bad question is the one not asked.

[Pawpaw]

I don't have a problem with anyone asking questions. After all, they're trying to do it right and stay out of trouble.

As a side benefit to us all... By getting a correct answer on here, they may avoid becoming a statistic that can be used against CHLers in general.

Just my opinion. It's worth exactly what you paid for it.

[WildBill]

I sat through the class and have read the PC. I feel I know what signs are legal and do not need to ask. However, I think we should all give those that are unclear a break. Personally, I am glad that there are lots of questions. The purpose of this forum is for people to learn and share information. There are many beginners out there that want to make sure they get it right. There is a lot of info in the class, so it is easy to get a bit confused. My mom, dad, teachers, clergy and friends all say that the only bad question is the one not asked.

There are many types of people who take CHL classes and there are many instructors who teach the class. Some students learn faster than others. Some instructors are better than others. Some students learn better by reading rather that visual presentations. Some students might lack confidence and need the additional feedback to make sure they understand the law.

Usually, I try to be helpful and patient to the newbies, no matter what the question. If I can't be polite, I refrain from answering and let someone else answer the post.

[pbwalker]

I can certainly understand *some* confusion, but based on what I've seen, it's almost as if they (used in a general sense) didn't pay attention in class. Just because a sign references some PC doesn't make it legal. And I mean off the wall signs like "Chapter II, Subsection 46.02(a) of the Mystical Gun Galaxy says do not carry your gun in here..." and I see the "Is this legal?" Really?

Maybe it's me, but I believe we have a duty as a CHL licensee, to know the laws as it pertains to carrying. That means knowing the signs. You should know, when you walk up to a store / establishment, what the signs means, how they affect us, and whether or not you *can* carry.

There should be no question as to the legality of a sign.

[WildBill]

Maybe it's me, but I believe we have a duty as a CHL licensee, to know the laws as it pertains to carrying. That means knowing the signs ... you should know, when you walk up to a store / establishment, what the signs means, how the affect us, and whether or not you *can* carry. There should be no question as to the legality of a sign.

I agree that the CHL has that duty. For most people, carrying a concealed handgun is a new experience. To some it is a scary experience so they want to make absolutely certain that they understand the law. So, if a person posts questions on the Forum to clarify their understanding of signs and the law, I have no problem with that.

[b322da]

The four questions posed here appear to tragically perpetuate one of the greatest misunderstandings on this forum. Loose language not only sinks ships, but it causes the law to be grossly misunderstood. My experience has been that instructors themselves are great perpetuators. Perhaps it starts with DPS, I wouldn't know, which also has been known to make mistakes.

Going back through posts prior to my becoming a member of this valued forum I have never, ever, seen an illegal sign. A person with the authority to post a sign on a premises can post anything he wants to post (with exceptions not relevant here), whether it comports with the demands of 30.06 or not. It is simply not illegal to post a sign which does not meet the strict 30-06 standards.

My compliments to randomoutburst, for her use of the term "enforceable" signs. She clearly understands the difference between legal signs and signs which are enforceable so as to make you, the CHL-licensee, a lawbreaker if you enter with a concealed handgun.

I may be beating a dead horse, but so long as members continue to wrongly use the term "illegal sign," and continue to display their misunderstanding and confuse new licensees I will continue to beat the poor horse until my heretofore courteous welcome ends.

Elmo

[pbwalker]

The four questions posed here appear to tragically perpetuate one of the greatest misunderstandings on this forum. Loose language not only sinks ships, but it causes the law to be grossly misunderstood. My experience has been that instructors themselves are great perpetuators. Perhaps it starts with DPS, I wouldn't know, which also has been known to make mistakes.

Going back through posts prior to my becoming a member of this valued forum I have never, ever, seen an illegal sign. A person with the authority to post a sign on a premises can post anything he wants to post (with exceptions not relevant here), whether it comports with the demands of 30.06 or not. It is simply not illegal to post a sign which does not meet the strict 30-06 standards.

My compliments to randomoutburst, for her use of the term "enforceable" signs. She clearly understands the difference between legal signs and signs which are enforceable so as to make you, the CHL-licensee, a lawbreaker if you enter with a concealed handgun.

I may be beating a dead horse, but so long as members continue to wrongly use the term "illegal sign," and continue to display their misunderstanding and confuse new licensees I will continue to beat the poor horse until my heretofore courteous welcome ends.

Elmo

Excellent post! I agree 100%...poor choice of words on my part. Enforceable signs is the appropriate terminology. The act of carrying past one of the enforceable signs is what makes it illegal. Like you said, one can post any sign they want. That is not illegal.

Example: This sign is perfectly legal. Enforceable, from a legal standpoint? Nope...


But there should be no question from a CHLer about the enforceability of this sign...that's the reason for my original post.

[Pawpaw]

It will be a sad day, indeed, when someone is reluctant to ask a "dumb" question on this site because they might offend someone.

I'm overflowing with dumb questions. Read some of my posts, if you don't believe me.

Keep asking, folks!

[pbwalker]

I don't think anyone is asking people to stop posting questions, so that point is moot.

I just think that we (CHLers) should know these things. For the folks who disagree, that's fine.

[WildBill]

I believe, actually I hope, that most the TexasCHLForum readers understand the difference between an unenforceable sign and an illegal sign. If posting a "gun buster" sign or other non-30.06 compliant sign were illegal, many Texas shopkeepers and store owners could be arrested.

The terminology "illegal sign" is a result of the internet. In an effort to increase the speed of communication, abbreviations and acronyms have replaced conventional writing and grammar for emails and internet posts. Therefore, a "not legally enforceable" sign quickly evolved to an "illegal sign". This is just a sign of the times.

[dicion]

This is just a sign of the times.

Yes, but is it an illegal sign? Or Merely unenforcable?
Sorry, had to.

In my class, the instructor had examples of each kind of sign. 30.06, TABC 51% Red, and TABC Blue, and explained the differences of each one and what they meant. He even had some typical gun-busters ones as an example of what is NOT Enforceable.

I can understand some people missing 46.035(i), or 30.06(e), or wondering what constitutes a 'school', or the definition of 'professional', and many other gray/ambiguous sections of the law. But I agree with the OP, a legally enforceable 30.06, and the other well-known signs should not be something that constantly gets asked. It should be 100% covered in your class, until your instructor is blue in the face.

Just my 2c

[b322da]

I believe, actually I hope, that most the TexasCHLForum readers understand the difference between an unenforceable sign and an illegal sign. If posting a "gun buster" sign or other non-30.06 compliant sign were illegal, many Texas shopkeepers and store owners could be arrested.

The terminology "illegal sign" is a result of the internet. In an effort to increase the speed of communication, abbreviations and acronyms have replaced conventional writing and grammar for emails and internet posts. Therefore, a "not legally enforceable" sign quickly evolved to an "illegal sign". This is just a sign of the times.

I suspect you are absolutely correct, WildBill, but I would have to disagree if you are implying that for the reasons you give we should go merrily along this way, notwithstanding the presence of those who do not understand this "shortcut," and I do not think you are. I think the old-timers on the forum are confusing some of the youngsters, which is not good. You and I might agree, for example, that all the old-timers agree, and understand, that on the forum, as an accident of sloppy usage and history, when they say "legal" they really mean "enforceable." Perhaps none of the old-timers are confused as they all understand each other.

But the youngsters just starting out, having to understand the important rules which apply to them as new CHL-ers or CHL-er wannabes, can easily get confused. I believe it is incumbent on old-timers to speak clearly and understandably about these rules, and not be tempted to use sloppy language due to over-familiariy with the topic.

And I would submit that if there is anywhere that we should be careful about our language, it is where we advise those youngsters new to CCW what is legal, and what is illegal. There is no room for confusion there.

Elmo

Nothing I say here should be understood to be legal advice; it is not intended as such. I am not the reader's lawyer, and one should not regulate his affairs in accordance with any opinion I might express. For legal advice one should consult an attorney of his choice.