"The city received inquiries from the ACLU and the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State suggesting that the Christian flag flying over the Veterans Memorial at Central Park violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution," City Manager John Cater said. "At the advice of the city attorney, the City Council voted to take down the Christian flag at last night's City Council meeting, citing the enormous cost associated with fighting a potential lawsuit on the issue."
Will it never end? Excuse me while I go throw-up....................
No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor. -- Murdock v. Pennsylvania If the State converts a right into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right with impunity. -- Shuttleworth v. City of Birmingham
I guess I see it from a completely different point of view...practicality, maybe.
The Memorial is presumably to a large number of Servicemembers of many varying religious denominations. Should we put up Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Agnostic and Atheist flags also? Oh my, who did I forget?
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Purplehood wrote:I guess I see it from a completely different point of view...practicality, maybe.
The Memorial is presumably to a large number of Servicemembers of many varying religious denominations. Should we put up Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Agnostic and Atheist flags also? Oh my, who did I forget?
Why not? Are we going to remove the Crosses, Star of David, or other religious symbols from the headstones? They are after all on government property.
No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor. -- Murdock v. Pennsylvania If the State converts a right into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right with impunity. -- Shuttleworth v. City of Birmingham
Purplehood wrote:I guess I see it from a completely different point of view...practicality, maybe.
The Memorial is presumably to a large number of Servicemembers of many varying religious denominations. Should we put up Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Agnostic and Atheist flags also? Oh my, who did I forget?
Why not? Are we going to remove the Crosses, Star of David, or other religious symbols from the headstones? They are after all on government property.
But they are appropriate to the individual headstones, presumably in compliance with the religious preference stated by each Service member when they enlisted/commissioned. I don't see that as any violation of 1st Amendment rights.
Life NRA
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No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor. -- Murdock v. Pennsylvania If the State converts a right into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right with impunity. -- Shuttleworth v. City of Birmingham
As the Commerce Clause has been perverted to justify virtually any legislation Congress wants to pass, the First Amendment has been perverted to prohibit displays of the Christian faith on government property. Both the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.
Nowhere in the Constitution will you find the phrase "separation of church and state." That abomination came from the Supreme Court. The only thing the First Amendment did in relation to religion was prevent the Untied States Government (later to include state government via the 14th Amendment) from establishing a federal (or state) church and require membership and/or attendance. The impetus for the Establishment Clause was the Church of England and the founding fathers' desire not to have a Church of the Untied States.
The fact that there are many religions other than the Judaism and Christianity is irrelevant. If the First Amendment were amended to clearly restate the original intent, then followers of other religions can petition their local government officials to include symbols of their faith on government property. If those requests are approved, fine, they are approved. If they are rejected, then fine, they are rejected. Posting of religious symbols on public property should not be a right, nor should it be prohibited. Followers of a particular religion do not have a right to a federal or state holiday in the name of one of their leaders, nor should they have equal time or presence on government property.
Purplehood wrote:Not trying to be combative, but why is there any need for a religious flag of any sort at a cemetery or memorial unless it is private?
There is no "need" nor is there a "need" to have them removed. There is no "need" for any type of memorial to those who died in service to their country, but we do so to honor them for their service and sacrifice. If someone doesn't want to be buried, or bury their loved ones, in a cemetery that flies a Christian flag, then don't. There are a lot of cemeteries in the country that would meet their requirements.
Much if not most of what we are seeing today in terms of religion has absolutely nothing to do with equality, but a blatant attempt to make Christianity politically incorrect. I'm sick of it.
Purplehood wrote:Not trying to be combative, but why is there any need for a religious flag of any sort at a cemetery or memorial unless it is private?
Also not trying to be combative, but why not allow all religions to fly their flags and be done with it. What damn business is it of the ACLU's anyway?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
I have to say that it seems to me like the ACLU conveniently keeps forgetting that second part. When are they ever going to stand up for that second part of the following amendment - the one that says "shall not be infringed?" But what the hades do I know? I'm only a citizen.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
Purplehood wrote:Not trying to be combative, but why is there any need for a religious flag of any sort at a cemetery or memorial unless it is private?
There is no "need" nor is there a "need" to have them removed. There is no "need" for any type of memorial to those who died in service to their country, but we do so to honor them for their service and sacrifice. If someone doesn't want to be buried, or bury their loved ones, in a cemetery that flies a Christian flag, then don't. There are a lot of cemeteries in the country that would meet their requirements.
Much if not most of what we are seeing today in terms of religion has absolutely nothing to do with equality, but a blatant attempt to make Christianity politically incorrect. I'm sick of it.
Chas.
That is precisely why I mentioned the part about it being private. If it is a public memorial or cemetery (as in Federal or State) than those that are buried in them (i.e. Veterans) have little to no say regarding who flies what over it.
Though I don't pretend to understand the legality or lack of it in regards to the phrase "separation of Church and State", I really support it. As to the concept of making any religion politically incorrect, I feel that it is irrelevant if there actually is "separation of Church and State". I simply prefer not to appear to favor any one over another.
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Charles L. Cotton wrote:As the Commerce Clause has been perverted to justify virtually any legislation Congress wants to pass, the First Amendment has been perverted to prohibit displays of the Christian faith on government property. Both the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.
I'm in total agreement with your sentiment, but do you really want today's government amending the constitution? Scary!
Purplehood wrote:Not trying to be combative, but why is there any need for a religious flag of any sort at a cemetery or memorial unless it is private?
There is no "need" nor is there a "need" to have them removed. There is no "need" for any type of memorial to those who died in service to their country, but we do so to honor them for their service and sacrifice. If someone doesn't want to be buried, or bury their loved ones, in a cemetery that flies a Christian flag, then don't. There are a lot of cemeteries in the country that would meet their requirements.
Much if not most of what we are seeing today in terms of religion has absolutely nothing to do with equality, but a blatant attempt to make Christianity politically incorrect. I'm sick of it.
Chas.
That is precisely why I mentioned the part about it being private. If it is a public memorial or cemetery (as in Federal or State) than those that are buried in them (i.e. Veterans) have little to no say regarding who flies what over it.
Though I don't pretend to understand the legality or lack of it in regards to the phrase "separation of Church and State", I really support it. As to the concept of making any religion politically incorrect, I feel that it is irrelevant if there actually is "separation of Church and State". I simply prefer not to appear to favor any one over another.
After reading my post again, it could appear that my "politically incorrect" statement was directed at you and/or your argument. I was not and if you took it that way I apologize. I was referring to the anti-Christian campaign conducted extensively by the media, the ACLU, atheists groups, non-Christian/non-Jewish religions, and some politicians.
I would make no distinction between public and private property in terms of displaying religious symbols because I do not believe the original intent of the Establishment Clause requires public venues to be devoid of any reference to God or Jesus. I acknowledge that U.S. Supreme Court cases hold otherwise which is why I said the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.
Charles L. Cotton wrote:As the Commerce Clause has been perverted to justify virtually any legislation Congress wants to pass, the First Amendment has been perverted to prohibit displays of the Christian faith on government property. Both the First Amendment and the Commerce Clause should be amended.
I'm in total agreement with your sentiment, but do you really want today's government amending the constitution? Scary!
No I don't!! That's why periodic calls for a Constitutional Convention are terrifying.
Purplehood wrote:But they are appropriate to the individual headstones, presumably in compliance with the religious preference stated by each Service member when they enlisted/commissioned. I don't see that as any violation of 1st Amendment rights.
However, I also think the service member should be able to choose non-religious symbols if they're not religious. It is, after all, their headstone.
