Scenario

[SW40VE]

Yesterday, I took my wife and 6 year old son shopping to buy a halloween costume. Long story short, guy cuts me off on the highway, without a blinker. I gave him the one finger salute (which is an instinct reaction I am working on right now). We both were going to the same shopping center I suppose. He went left and I went right in the shopping center. I thought to myself, "good, he went away.". As we are walking into the local retailer, I see his vehicle driving slowly through the parking lot, as he is just staring me. I turned around and waved hi to him (just being who I am I guess).

He proceeds to park, get out of his car, and begin walking towards the store I am in. Gut feeling told me not to take my eyes off of him. He walked into the store, looked around for me.

My first thought was, "....there are ALOT of kids here. I can't let anything go down here, if the situation arises". I told my wife and son to go shop, and walked to a place where there were shopping carts between us. I had my right hand on my pepper spray which was in my pocket, because there was no way I was going to pull my gun with so many children around.

He then loudly said,"You couldn't have just let me in *******?". I responded with, "You didn't have a turn signal on and you just completely cut me off. I think you need to turn around and walk right back out of that door, now.". He just turned around and walked out. I still didn't take my eyes off of him. He proceeded to go to my vehicle and look at the license plate, then leave ( a scare tactic I assume?). I had my eyes on him until I could no longer see him. I was also very aware as we left the store, looking for his vehicle and he was nowhere to be found.

Now I know I aggrevated the situation with the finger and the waving, but the mere fact of him following me into a store for a confrontation, would I have been justified in giving him a shot of pepper spray then calling the cops? I am comforted by the fact that I was able to think through the situation and decide on which method of defense I would have used, though, since this was my first confrontation since getting my CHL. And yes, I had 17 rounds of 9mm corbon HP's on my right hip.

Your input is appreciated.

[seamusTX]

... the mere fact of him following me into a store for a confrontation, would I have been justified in giving him a shot of pepper spray then calling the cops?

Did you feel that he threatened to injure you or anyone else or steal or damage your property?

Personally, I don't think dirty looks count.

The last time I gave someone the finger while driving, he made a left turn in front of me without signalling. We went in separate directions and I didn't think anything more of it. I went into a grocery store and did some shopping. While I was in line at the checkout, a guy walked up behind me and said, "How come you gave me the finger out there." Oops.

Like I said, that taught me a lesson.

- Jim

[SW40VE]

So, are you saying he would have to actually put his hands on me or verbally threaten me first?

[seamusTX]

I would say "threaten" in some way. It could be verbal, advancing on you when you've said Stop, raising a fist, or displaying a weapon.

- Jim

[fadlan12]

Bottom line is you escalated an incident. We don't need anyone getting thier EGO off. My kids are 99% if the time with me and I will do zero actions that might get them involved in a confrontation.

My weapon is on me for defense of my family and myself. There is no need to be macho, you and your loved ones will suffer for it.

If you had sprayed him it would have been assualt, equal force only.

The very thought of not being there for my kids makes me see red. An incident like that could turn south in a heartbeat and then you are either in jail, bankrupt, or dead .

Think like this: would you have flipped him off if you knew he had a gun?

[longtooth]

SW40VE,
Got to start at the beginning. As an armed CHL holder living in politeness (if that is a word) is JUST AS IMPORTANT as living in yellow. You did say you are working on the instinctive response & that is good. It is more than good; it is imperative. On the street, that is one of the most infuriating things to anyone looking for a little confrontation or a real BG hunting trouble.
There is no way to win that fight. A lawyer would have a hay day portraying you as the escalator w/ a gun when someone just made a mistake not seeing you on the road. I know it has got to be harder in the big cities than where I live but-------
The real answer is let them in, smile, & never have to reach for the pepper.

[John]

OK... So the question is, will you do it again? Consider that he might have used his blinker, but it was out. Does everyone out there know how to tell if a turn signal is out? Probably not. Have you ever clicked your turn signal only to have it click right back off because of the position of the steering wheel? As far as questions go, have you ever driven in Houston? Defensive driving dictates to expect people to turn in front of you without a blinker.

Anyway, just busting your chops a little. No offense intended and I am glad the incident ended without escalating further. Your response was neutral enough not to escalate the incident with that person. A response that might de-escalate could be something like, "my apologies for doing that, but you might check your turn-signal, because it I did not see it on".

My wife has a habit of wagging her index finger at people from the car. It irritates the heck out of me. I'm sure if something like this were to happen to her, she'd stop doing it.

[SW40VE]

I am not justifying my actions, but this was no little old lady with a broken turn signal. This was a jerk driving like a maniac who caused me to slam on my brakes to keep him from hitting me.

Actually, I did grow up in Houston and live in San Antonio now. I think San Antonio is much worse considering the number of people on the road who don't even have a drivers license let alone US citizenship.

I chalk this up as a learning experience for sure, and my actions definitely would not be the same if this ever happens again. My biggest reason for the post was about him deliberately following me into the store and confronting me. I think that would be seen as an act of aggression IMHO.

I wouldn't call myself someone with a big ego.

[seamusTX]

My biggest reason for the post was about him deliberately following me into the store and confronting me. I think that would be seen as an act of aggression IMHO.

It is an act of aggression, like dirty looks, obscene words or gestures.

The question is whether it is a threat.

It's not illegal to be a jerk. It's unfair that those of us who are level-headed have to compensate for the jerks. But that's the way it is.

This driver that confronted you will come to a bad end, no doubt about it. He will confront another hot-head, and one or both of them will end up hurt, dead, sued, or in jail.

- Jim

[KRM45]

One thing to think about... Up to this point I have seen no threats on either side.

Think the situation through to its conclusion. We could be responding to a CHL holder saying

"I didn't see this guy on the road, and I almost hit him. He flipped me the bird. I then saw him in the parking lot of a stor and he waved to me. I followed him into the store to appologize for cutting him off and he pulled a can of pepper spray and sprayed me. Was I justified in shooting him to defend myself?"

It may sound like a streach, but we can't possibly know what is going on with the other person in any situation.

My philosophy is alway think the best of any situation, while being prepared for the worst. Now if I could only stick to it, I'd be better off.

[jbirds1210]

Sticks and stones can break your bones.....

I think a shot of pepper spray in that situation would have likely ended with you in jail. I am glad you had it....and glad you had a way out of a situation that you escalated I think it is a great scenario.....thanks for sharing it with us.

I am not calling the kettle black......I have done the same thing in the past and try very hard to keep my middle finger even with the rest of them. I am not writing this in anything but a humble way because I have had the same problems in the past.

Gotta love Texas and the lack of respect for human life that many have on our roads...unlike many places, if you tell someone they are number 1, they will follow you home!
Jason

[seamusTX]

Gotta love Texas and the lack of respect for human life that many have on our roads...unlike many places, if you tell someone they are number 1, they will follow you home!

I spent half my life in Chicago. It is far worse than Houston, which is the worst place I've driven in Texas.

The only reason that the finger does not get more of a reaction there is that you see it ten times an hour.

- Jim

[John]

This is something that might help. If you sum up all of the self help books (and there are tons out there), sales 101 classes (these almost always deal with people and social interation), de-escaltion techniques (like the LEAPS), you end up with the a summary of a prayer from St. Francis of Assisi:

Lord, make us instruments of your peace.
Where there is hatred let us sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is discord, union;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.

Grant that we may not so much seek
To be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

I offer this not as preaching (i am not a preacher), but as something I have kept in my day planner for years and read a few times a week. It keeps me on track.

[Glockamolie]

If anything even remotely similar to that happened to me, I would have called the cops RIGHT THEN, and reported what happened. When he eyeballed your plate, that's a direct sign that he wants to make a case. First guy that calls wins. I'd just want it documented.

[yerasimos]

Good move on the shopping cart thing, and background awareness. It sounds like you started off on the wrong foot, and corrected as best you could afterward.

I agree with most of the others here: lose the hand gestures, on the road or off. Whenever I get the urge to use the one-finger salute, I quickly remember that it is not just uncivil or unwise, but arguably against the law per PC 42.01(a)(2). You need the hands for driving or running your guns, anyway.

Many of the respected gentlemen here have stated that as CHLers, we have to get used to swallowing our pride/indignation/etc, and teach ourselves to back out gracefully long before any hostilities could start. As I see it, this is as important (or even more so) as avoiding the three Ss (don't go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things).