An argument against open carry?

[jbirds1210]

Not really an argument, but an example of what open carry might invite. Do you guys and gals think that this burden would be placed on a CHL holder should the opportunity arise? Suicide by police shooting occurs frequently and could end up being an expensive nightmare for a CHL holder that lets the public know they are armed. Just a thought....I wanted to see what you all think.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hea ... 78318.html

Oct. 21, 2006, 9:44PM
Man with BB gun shot by deputies
He was pointing weapon thought to be real firearm, spokesman says


By JENNIFER LEAHY
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Harris County sheriff's deputies say they shot and wounded a Huffman man Friday night after he pointed what turned out to be a BB gun at them.

Brian Murry, 26, was hit by several rounds fired by deputies when Murry aimed the gun at an officer.

Around 7:30 p.m., said Lt. John Martin, "a man said that his brother was cooking methamphetamine in the house and had a gun and that he was scared. The man then hung up. Our dispatcher called the number back but did not receive an answer. The man soon called back and said that he was in the woods behind the house and was dying. The dispatcher could hear him gasping for breath."

Deputies searched the woods behind the residence and called in a canine unit, but no victim was found.

About 9:20, Martin said, one of the officers saw a light go on in the garage and heard noises that led him to believe that someone in the garage was loading a weapon. Murry came out, confronted the deputies and raised the BB gun toward them. Deputies then shot him.

"It appears that the intent was to provoke deputies into shooting him. There are very limited situations in which deadly force is authorized. This is one of them — officers shot to neutralize a threat," Martin said.

It was later determined that the weapon was a BB gun.

"Obviously this was in a low-light situation, however, the gun recovered looks just like an actual firearm," said Martin.

Murry was taken to Ben Taub Hospital where he is listed in stable condition. He has been charged with aggravated assault on a peace officer.

"This is a very bizarre incident. Murry was the only one at the home the entire time, there was no brother," Martin said.

Murry was charged with criminal mischief in September. In 2005 he was charged with making a false report, and in 2004 he was charged with discharging a firearm.

jennifer.leahy@chron.com

[flintknapper]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

It seems to me that pointing a weapon at LEO is the problem...and will always end (quite predictably) with the officers defending themselves.

I would think "where or how" someone carried a firearm would be rather moot.

Don't point a weapon at officers, I don't care where it was originally: (Open carry, Concealed carry, In the garage, Taken from a gun case).

I don't personally know any LEO's that will shoot you for simply having a weapon. Now, if you put your hand on that weapon.....and certainly if you point it at them, then all bets are off.

[Mithras61]

Not trying to start an argument on this topic, but I don't see how this relates in any way to open carry.

This is an example of what LawDog calls a critter who decided that "suicide by cop" was on the evening's list of entertaining things to do. He called 911 several times and made noises like he was in a situation that would require deadly force from police, and then when police (properly primed by his calls) arrived on scene, he further provoked them by pointing a pistol at them in a fashion that made it nearly impossible for the officers responding to determine that it was in fact a toy.

The nearest scenario I can come up with is if you were MYOB in a park after dark (aren't they closed then?) and a critter deceided to pull something similar, and when the LEOs arrive you do the ultimate stupid and don't put down your weapon when told to do so.

[seamusTX]

A deranged man in Galveston was standing on the street pointing a pistol at passing cars. The police were called, of course; and when he threatened them, they shot him nonfatally.

It was a replica AirSoft gun. IIRC, the tip of the barrel had been painted black.

If any of the passing drivers had been armed (whether CHLs or not), they might have shot the guy. He was trying to provoke a response from whatever source.

BTW, he later drowned himself.

The story above is an excellent argument against using meth.

- Jim

[jbirds1210]

I should have been more clear...sorry my head was a bit foggy when I asked the original question. I was trying to ask:

Do you all think that a person wishing to commit suicide will approach a citizen carrying openly in hopes of being shot?
Police are put in the situation frequently and I just wondered if it might happen with a citizen practicing open carry.

Not trying to start an argument....just want your thougths. I have mixed emotions about open carry and wanted feedback.
Jason

[DaveT]

Having been involved in a 'suicide by cop' incident myself, I understood fully what jbirds1210 was asking in his post that started this thread.

The two scenerios are related in more ways than a lot of folks would imagine. While the incident described involved making a phony phone call to get armed officers to the scene, the situation where a person in that frame of mind who sees an open carry CHL holder is also very valid. If someone in the frame of mind to commit 'suicide by cop' sees a weapon open carried on the hip of a citizen on the streets, that might just be all that is needed to set him off. Even sane people are likely to think that someone open carrying is LEO, so there is no telling what a mentally unbalanced person will think or assume.

While not likely to happen that often, this sceneario is just one more reason why open carry is not a good idea, in my opinion. Concealed gives us an advantage, open carry gives the bad guy an advantage because we no longer have the element of surprise.

Even if the law were to change to open carry here in Texas, I doubt I would ever carry that way. Look at any thread on any board that is about concealed carry badges. Almost everyone thinks it is a very bad idea because folks might consider us LEO. Would open carry be any different ? AND... would open carry also require some sort of open identification ?? It's all a path I would rather not travel down.

[seamusTX]

Do you all think that a person wishing to commit suicide will approach a citizen carrying openly in hopes of being shot?

Personally, I think it's unlikely.

Most of these scenarios are like the story that you posted: the would-be suicide calls the police, or starts some incident the will certainly result in the police being called. He knows the police will be armed and jumpy when they arrive.

There's probably some twisted thinking about authority figures involved, and some copycat aspect.

If someone wanted to commit "suicide by armed citizen," he could attack armed guards, rob pawn shops, or do something stupid at a shooting range. It just doesn't seem to happen (though quite a few robbers who pretend to be armed are shot).

- Jim

[Venus Pax]

A person carrying openly (gun holstered and on belt) is much different from someone pointing the muzzle of a gun (airsoft, BB, or real McCoy) at you.
I wouldn't call it suicide: I'd call it death by stupidity.

You don't point a gun at someone unless you would like them to point one back at you and possibly shoot.

[Mithras61]

I should have been more clear...sorry my head was a bit foggy when I asked the original question. I was trying to ask:

Do you all think that a person wishing to commit suicide will approach a citizen carrying openly in hopes of being shot?
Police are put in the situation frequently and I just wondered if it might happen with a citizen practicing open carry.

Not trying to start an argument....just want your thougths. I have mixed emotions about open carry and wanted feedback.
Jason

I understand now. The way I see it, it is essentially the same thing as that critter a little while back who walked into a bar (in Austin, I think) and started waving a pistol around & got himself shot by the bartender for his trouble. The bartender was not charged because they felt it was obvious that the critter was operating with intent to convince the people in the bar that what he had was a "real" gun.

My point is that people intent on "suicide by others" will always have a multitude of ways to accomplish it ranging from what the doofus in your news article did to playing in traffic on the freeway (hey, it happens!).

I would be unlikely to open carry if the law was passed to allow it, but would still like to see it passed. I object to being told that I can't carry openly for the same reasons I object to being told to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle. I wear a seatbelt/helmet anyway. It makes sense to do so. I don't like laws designed to protect the stupid or lazy from themselves that are imposed on the public in general.

[KBCraig]

I would be unlikely to open carry if the law was passed to allow it, but would still like to see it passed. I object to being told that I can't carry openly for the same reasons I object to being told to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle. I wear a seatbelt/helmet anyway. It makes sense to do so. I don't like laws designed to protect the stupid or lazy from themselves that are imposed on the public in general.

When we move to New Hampshire, we'll enjoy open carry (even without a license), and the freedom to ride without helmets (not that we would), and drive without seatbelts. NH is the only state without mandatory seatbelt laws for adults.

Like you, I always buckle up, even in NH, just like I did here before it became mandatory. When I had a motorcycle, I always wore a helmet, even if it wasn't required.

Kevin

[Roger Howard]

Yes, it could happen to a citizen openly carrying. I think the odds are way low. Even if we could open carry, I wouldn't. I like the advantage of concealment.

[KRM45]

The story above is an excellent argument against using meth.

- Jim

+1 on that!

[TxFire]

There is the remote possiblity that someone might try that with a person who happens to be open carrying. But that in my opinion is no reason to object to open carry.

[40FIVER]

I don't like laws designed to protect the stupid or lazy from themselves that are imposed on the public in general.

40FIVER

[flintknapper]

Now I understand.

Thanks for clarifying. I suppose the scenario you propose is possible.

Is it a valid reason to not have open carry laws though, not in my estimation.

The same suicidal person might throw himself in front of my car, but I still would like to be able to drive.

With the national average of "hit rates" for LEO at less than 20%, it doesn't seem a very sure way to leave this world anyway. It can't be any better if we involve everyday citizens.

Now, I'm not saying that the occasional nut case might not try what you proposed, but my world is not going to stop turning for an "off chance".

I'd be happy to see 1/2 of my licensing fees go to mental health programs if that would help.

Just my .02