I'm looking for a way to find CHL related shootings.

[pcgizzmo]

Is there a way to find CHL related shooting information in Texas and other states? Is the police report public information or is there some reason I would not be able to access it? Thanks....

Also, let me clarify this if for research and not for anything derogatory towards CHL shootings. I'm wanting to do some research for a possible paper I want to write and need to access CHL info if possible.

[Smily]

Here is for Texas... http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... vrates.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other states may have something similar but you will have to hunt each down.

-Smily

[seamusTX]

There is no one place to find information about self-defense incidents involving people with CHLs or whatever a concealed weapon license may be called in other states.

There must be hundreds posted on this forum by now, but there is no effective way to search for them.

These incidents are rare in the grand scheme of things. Maybe a few hundred shootings by legally armed non-LEO defenders occur a year. Most are not CHLs. Most are in homes or businesses.

The Uniform Crime Report published by the FBI lists justifiable homicides, but they do not separate out CHLs from other defenders. Also they do not include non-fatal shootings, near misses, "warning shots," or incidents in which simply producing a weapon prevented a crime.

Maybe the best source would be John Lott's book More Guns Less Crime.

- Jim

[Skiprr]

I'm far from being an authority on this but, in general, you are correct that police reports are public information. However, as seamusTX says, finding any easily-sourced information is going to be a steep mountain to climb.

The primary reason is that police/arrest records are specific to the jurisdiction of the incident. For example, you would need to go through the Open Records Unit of the Public Affairs Division of the Houston Police Department to locate records dealing with incidents/arrests made by the HPD. It will be the same for every municipal police and county sheriff’s department.

And keep in mind that while you can ask for access under the Open Records Act, no agency is required to massage the data for you: in other words, you can ask for access to 911 tapes, dispatch transcripts, jail bookings, incident reports, compiled reports that are routinely maintained, etc., but no agency will have the resources to do the research for you that would be necessary to review past incidents to determine if a CHL was involved, then further to understand the outcome of those incidents.

Records maintained by the District Attorney offices are separate, and may or may not be publicly available depending upon prosecutorial (or civil suit) status. Records that are interagency (e.g., joint county/municipal involvement, incidents that may involve other extradition to/from other states, or involve federal enforcement agencies like ICE or the FBI), are another animal, and things can get complicated very quickly.

The Uniform Crime Report compiled and published by the FBI is completely dependent on thorough and accurate reporting from local agencies. The statistics that DPS maintains about CHL criminal activity are summary only. In neither case do the compilations provide any statistical information about CHL use of deadly force that is no-billed, acquitted or, of course, never reported (i.e., gun drawn and perp runs away without a shot being fired).

Kinda like you, I know there are meaningful data in there somewhere, data that are bound to shed a highly favorable light on CHL holders. But I don’t know of any reasonably efficient way to go about getting at the info, or of any way to show statistical validity if you do.

For anecdotal information, one place to look might be the archives of the NRA’s Armed Citizen reports: http://www.nraila.org/armedcitizen/. Entries date back to 1958, and are searchable by key word and/or state.

[pcgizzmo]

I'm far from being an authority on this but, in general, you are correct that police reports are public information. However, as seamusTX says, finding any easily-sourced information is going to be a steep mountain to climb.

The primary reason is that police/arrest records are specific to the jurisdiction of the incident. For example, you would need to go through the Open Records Unit of the Public Affairs Division of the Houston Police Department to locate records dealing with incidents/arrests made by the HPD. It will be the same for every municipal police and county sheriff’s department.

And keep in mind that while you can ask for access under the Open Records Act, no agency is required to massage the data for you: in other words, you can ask for access to 911 tapes, dispatch transcripts, jail bookings, incident reports, compiled reports that are routinely maintained, etc., but no agency will have the resources to do the research for you that would be necessary to review past incidents to determine if a CHL was involved, then further to understand the outcome of those incidents.

Records maintained by the District Attorney offices are separate, and may or may not be publicly available depending upon prosecutorial (or civil suit) status. Records that are interagency (e.g., joint county/municipal involvement, incidents that may involve other extradition to/from other states, or involve federal enforcement agencies like ICE or the FBI), are another animal, and things can get complicated very quickly.

The Uniform Crime Report compiled and published by the FBI is completely dependent on thorough and accurate reporting from local agencies. The statistics that DPS maintains about CHL criminal activity are summary only. In neither case do the compilations provide any statistical information about CHL use of deadly force that is no-billed, acquitted or, of course, never reported (i.e., gun drawn and perp runs away without a shot being fired).

Kinda like you, I know there are meaningful data in there somewhere, data that are bound to shed a highly favorable light on CHL holders. But I don’t know of any reasonably efficient way to go about getting at the info, or of any way to show statistical validity if you do.

For anecdotal information, one place to look might be the archives of the NRA’s Armed Citizen reports: http://www.nraila.org/armedcitizen/. Entries date back to 1958, and are searchable by key word and/or state.

Thanks for the replies. I agree w/all of the above. I looked at the DPS's info and while it shows a CHL was involved in a crime as you said I'm looking for more info as to the outcome and facts leading up the incident. For sake of discussion information that would be needed to write a book discussing CHL incidents and the outcome of those incidents. Thanks for the NRA link. It might come in handy.

[WildBill]

As Skippr posted, the armed citizen has been around for a long long time and is a good sorce. As with most columns the space is limited to a small number of incidences. Each year there are probably enough examples to fill a book. DPS statistics are only going to show CHL-holder crimes rather than incidences when a CHL holder lawfully stops a crime or defends himself.

[74novaman]

As Skippr posted, the armed citizen has been around for a long long time and is a good sorce. As with most columns the space is limited to a small number of incidences. Each year there are probably enough examples to fill a book. DPS statistics are only going to show CHL-holder crimes rather than incidences when a CHL holder lawfully stops a crime or defends himself.

That armed citizen thing is such a great resource. I've been reading it for the past 30 minutes, some scary situations in there!

[baldeagle]

pcgizzmo, if you're really serious about doing research in this area, I would write John Lott and ask him for his sources. He probably knows more about this area than anyone other than Gary Kleck (whom you might also write), and he consistently reports high numbers of incidents prevented by CHL holders. He has to be getting those data from somewhere.

[WildBill]

pcgizzmo, if you're really serious about doing research in this area, I would write John Lott and ask him for his sources. He probably knows more about this area than anyone other than Gary Kleck (whom you might also write), and he consistently reports high numbers of incidents prevented by CHL holders. He has to be getting those data from somewhere.

I found about him, but he would be an excellent source of data.

[pcgizzmo]

pcgizzmo, if you're really serious about doing research in this area, I would write John Lott and ask him for his sources. He probably knows more about this area than anyone other than Gary Kleck (whom you might also write), and he consistently reports high numbers of incidents prevented by CHL holders. He has to be getting those data from somewhere.

Thanks! This is a good idea. Hopefully he won't mind pointing me in the right direction.

[seamusTX]

If you just perform a web search for "Gary Kleck guns" you will find a bunch of references. Most of Dr. Kleck's work is published in academic journals and not available for free online. If you are in college, you may have access to them through the library.

He is interesting because he started studying self-defense issues with a view to demonstrating the need for "gun control." He came to the opposite conclusion, i.e., that possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens stops or deters crime at a rate of millions of incidents per year in the U.S.

Anyway, at the risk of repeating myself, this information is not too useful if you want to find out how many incidents involve concealed handgun licensees versus other forms of legal possession of weapons. There are too many different state laws allowing unlicensed carry and keeping weapons in a home or business.

- Jim

[lonestarprotect]

I love the armed citizen reports. Great reading! Google it in different wording. It's bound to pop up. The media loves to talk about it if a permit holder can be viewed as questionable. Good luck!