Explains why NYC can't have guns

[olafpfj]

I have long thought that the Liberal bastions are nothing to write home about. San Francisco and New York, for example, I feel are absolute pits of humanity. These supposed great cities of the world are rife with crime, homelessness, trash in the streets, human waste on the sidewalks and have a general air of simmering chaos (not to mention the stench). Looking at this video reinforces my stance that as a society places more and more reliance on letting the government and authorities be sole arbiter of order people care less and less about what the person next to them might do. All of the people in the video know that not one single soul in that intersection will actually do anything about the flagrant violations because its the job of the police and they all know that the police are no where to be found nor would they do anything if they were. To me this video is a stark illustration of what happens when a society stops being self reliant and hands all power to the nanny state. When people only answer to the state there ceases to be any obligation towards your fellow citizen. You now only answer to an anonymous state and any behavior you can get away with becomes acceptable because the opinion of your fellow citizen carries no weight any longer. In many ways this reflects the anonymity of the internet where trolls can say anything they want because they don't have to actually answer to anyone in any meaningful way. rant rant rant...blah blah blah.

Anywho...I hate NY...but not as much as San Francisco....

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[Texas Dan Mosby]

Anywho...I hate NY...but not as much as San Francisco....

Meh...

I'm not a big fan of cities in general. Traffic, trash, stench, concrete, a gojillion people per square mile.

Not my forte.

I prefer the company of critters, trees, grass, an occasional cow, and a smattering of people who show some consideration for their fellow man.

They can keep their concrete, crime and pollution as long as they don't try to infect my particular corner of the world.

[Excaliber]

I spent a great deal of time in NYC, and what you see on the video is one observer's interpretation. He has set up arbitrary parameters for high risk close encounters as shown by the colored highlights and established a presumptuous stance that says things shouldn't be so. This is a great case for proving that what you see is in the mind of the observer.

What I see is a lot of highly skilled (although in many cases not legally compliant) bike messengers who move through traffic like water through a rock wall without changing speed, and alert and aggressive drivers and pedestrians who manage to adjust to lots of challenges without doing any damage to anything except the nerves of unfamiliar observers.

New York denizens know to look out for these movements as well as for the other maneuvers you see in the video, and adjust their pace and trajectory to avoid contact as needed. This is done on an almost unconscious level, and doesn't stress them out at all.

What the videographer has documented is not an outrageous level of risk, but rather a pretty darn good level of safety despite the liberties taken with a strict interpretation of the traffic laws. You'll note that none of those things on the video clip that endangered his control of his water resulted in a collision.

New Yorkers have no problem going about their business in this environment, and in most cases do so successfully for their entire lives. If they attempted to follow every traffic law, they would be outside the rhythm of the street and would very likely be quickly involved in an accident.

A takeaway from the video is that folks who go through life with iPod earbuds plugging their ears and their eyes firmly focused on their navels shouldn't walk by themselves in NYC. They should take a cab - which is also a memorable but usually survivable experience unlike what many are used to.

[OldCurlyWolf]

IF the pedestrians would start planting the idiots riding bicycles on the side walks on their butts on the concrete as a regular occurrence, there would soon be less Idiots riding bicycles on sidewalks.

[G26ster]

Obviously, the OP has never been to Tokyo. They don't call 'em "Kamakazi Cabs" for nothing.

[olafpfj]

What I see is a lot of highly skilled (although in many cases not legally compliant) bike messengers who move through traffic like water through a rock wall without changing speed, and alert and aggressive drivers and pedestrians who manage to adjust to lots of challenges without doing any damage to anything except the nerves of unfamiliar observers.

Perhaps basing my rant on that video was a bit of a stretch but I was trying to point out what you said above. While they are indeed very skilled, and I admire it greatly, it is the flagrant disregard for the law that bugs me. If thats how NY has decided they are going to drive and navigate, the laws should reflect that. What we see (I agree he's overhyping the danger) is a society at odds with the laws and subsequently completely ignoring them. The point I was trying to make was not about the danger of NYC intersections but about how the video documents a well established pattern of wanton civil disobedience. Despite a perfect example of how his city works, Bloomberg seems to think that passing more laws will make people behave differently but here we have a shining example of how ridiculous that notion is. You see a snapshot of the populace behaving as a free and self determining people despite what the law says. It generally just opens the door for selective, arbitrary enforcement and tons of corruption. San Francisco operates much the same way but in different areas. Everyone drives very civilized and instead you have public nudity and rampant public pot smoking. I'm not making any sort of moral statement about any of that, but it is technically against the law and it is very loosely enforced.

Its hard for me to keep my argument focused. I have it all straight in my head but it keeps turning into a masters thesis whenever I try to write it down. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that in the Liberal meccas you see complete disregard for the law which leads to selective and corrupt enforcement by the police and government. Perhaps this is why the politicians and people in power from these areas are so rabidly anti gun. They see every day how much a society will push back against their power when it comes in conflict with how the people want to live. If this were truly the land of the free then the laws would reflect how people actually live and not be used for social engineering.

I've been trying to focus this concept into a more concise treatise of late, purely for the academic exercise, but its still a sprawling mess trying to express my point. Thanks for humoring me...

[Excaliber]

What I see is a lot of highly skilled (although in many cases not legally compliant) bike messengers who move through traffic like water through a rock wall without changing speed, and alert and aggressive drivers and pedestrians who manage to adjust to lots of challenges without doing any damage to anything except the nerves of unfamiliar observers.

Perhaps basing my rant on that video was a bit of a stretch but I was trying to point out what you said above. While they are indeed very skilled, and I admire it greatly, it is the flagrant disregard for the law that bugs me. If thats how NY has decided they are going to drive and navigate, the laws should reflect that. What we see (I agree he's overhyping the danger) is a society at odds with the laws and subsequently completely ignoring them. The point I was trying to make was not about the danger of NYC intersections but about how the video documents a well established pattern of wanton civil disobedience. Despite a perfect example of how his city works, Bloomberg seems to think that passing more laws will make people behave differently but here we have a shining example of how ridiculous that notion is. You see a snapshot of the populace behaving as a free and self determining people despite what the law says. It generally just opens the door for selective, arbitrary enforcement and tons of corruption. San Francisco operates much the same way but in different areas. Everyone drives very civilized and instead you have public nudity and rampant public pot smoking. I'm not making any sort of moral statement about any of that, but it is technically against the law and it is very loosely enforced.

Its hard for me to keep my argument focused. I have it all straight in my head but it keeps turning into a masters thesis whenever I try to write it down. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that in the Liberal meccas you see complete disregard for the law which leads to selective and corrupt enforcement by the police and government. Perhaps this is why the politicians and people in power from these areas are so rabidly anti gun. They see every day how much a society will push back against their power when it comes in conflict with how the people want to live. If this were truly the land of the free then the laws would reflect how people actually live and not be used for social engineering.

I've been trying to focus this concept into a more concise treatise of late, purely for the academic exercise, but its still a sprawling mess trying to express my point. Thanks for humoring me...

One could indeed do a master's thesis on what's going on there.

The vehicle and traffic laws in NYC are primarily the ones written to cover the entire state, with some local refinements regarding parking, jaywalking, and similar issues. While they work just fine and are largely obeyed in most areas of the state, they don't meet the needs of the folks in NYC. Commerce would come to a crawl if everyone adhered to every ordinance, but I don't know how you could write more refined laws to define the rules that actually govern how traffic of all types moves because it depends on thousands of competent independent decisions and communication conventions that would be unrecognizable to most observers, but are used to signal intent to keep surprises out of the mix.

The police department generally takes a pragmatic approach - if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but don't flaunt the law in front of an officer either. However, if some of those liberties taken lead to a collision, the applicable laws are enforced. The practical effect is: if you're going to ignore a law, you'd better be good at keeping whatever you're doing from causing an accident, and you'd better not do it in front of an officer.

The result is something that more closely resembles choreography than chaos - until someone who doesn't understand what's going on gets into the middle of it. What happens then resembles what would happen if an amateur suddenly stepped into the middle of 40 professionals doing a tightly synchronized dance routine.

[Purplehood]

Obviously, the OP has never been to Tokyo. They don't call 'em "Kamakazi Cabs" for nothing.

Only if you tell 'em to go Kamikaze...otherwise I had no problem with them.

[Purplehood]

Obviously, the OP has never been to Tokyo. They don't call 'em "Kamakazi Cabs" for nothing.

Only if you tell 'em to go Kamikaze...otherwise I had no problem with them.

I have to agree with Excalibur. Every major metro area develops its own choreography of traffic patterns. It is really just a sub-culture of the generally accepted culture. Long-time drivers in a particular area adapt and comply. Newcomers are frequently startled and shocked by what appears to be chaos, when it really is not.

I have driven in Tokyo, Okinawa, Southern California (San Diego to LA), Denver and Houston. Every one of these heavy-traffic districts has its own way of dealing with traffic.

Note: Okinawa and Denver have a lighter traffic density, but are good examples of different driving-cultures.

[jimlongley]

What I see is a lot of highly skilled (although in many cases not legally compliant) bike messengers who move through traffic like water through a rock wall without changing speed, and alert and aggressive drivers and pedestrians who manage to adjust to lots of challenges without doing any damage to anything except the nerves of unfamiliar observers.

Perhaps basing my rant on that video was a bit of a stretch but I was trying to point out what you said above. While they are indeed very skilled, and I admire it greatly, it is the flagrant disregard for the law that bugs me. If thats how NY has decided they are going to drive and navigate, the laws should reflect that. What we see (I agree he's overhyping the danger) is a society at odds with the laws and subsequently completely ignoring them. The point I was trying to make was not about the danger of NYC intersections but about how the video documents a well established pattern of wanton civil disobedience. Despite a perfect example of how his city works, Bloomberg seems to think that passing more laws will make people behave differently but here we have a shining example of how ridiculous that notion is. You see a snapshot of the populace behaving as a free and self determining people despite what the law says. It generally just opens the door for selective, arbitrary enforcement and tons of corruption. San Francisco operates much the same way but in different areas. Everyone drives very civilized and instead you have public nudity and rampant public pot smoking. I'm not making any sort of moral statement about any of that, but it is technically against the law and it is very loosely enforced.

Its hard for me to keep my argument focused. I have it all straight in my head but it keeps turning into a masters thesis whenever I try to write it down. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that in the Liberal meccas you see complete disregard for the law which leads to selective and corrupt enforcement by the police and government. Perhaps this is why the politicians and people in power from these areas are so rabidly anti gun. They see every day how much a society will push back against their power when it comes in conflict with how the people want to live. If this were truly the land of the free then the laws would reflect how people actually live and not be used for social engineering.

I've been trying to focus this concept into a more concise treatise of late, purely for the academic exercise, but its still a sprawling mess trying to express my point. Thanks for humoring me...

One could indeed do a master's thesis on what's going on there.

The vehicle and traffic laws in NYC are primarily the ones written to cover the entire state, with some local refinements regarding parking, jaywalking, and similar issues. While they work just fine and are largely obeyed in most areas of the state, they don't meet the needs of the folks in NYC. Commerce would come to a crawl if everyone adhered to every ordinance, but I don't know how you could write more refined laws to define the rules that actually govern how traffic of all types moves because it depends on thousands of competent independent decisions and communication conventions that would be unrecognizable to most observers, but are used to signal intent to keep surprises out of the mix.

The police department generally takes a pragmatic approach - if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but don't flaunt the law in front of an officer either. However, if some of those liberties taken lead to a collision, the applicable laws are enforced. The practical effect is: if you're going to ignore a law, you'd better be good at keeping whatever you're doing from causing an accident, and you'd better not do it in front of an officer.

The result is something that more closely resembles choreography than chaos - until someone who doesn't understand what's going on gets into the middle of it. What happens then resembles what would happen if an amateur suddenly stepped into the middle of 40 professionals doing a tightly synchronized dance routine.

Having spent a great deal of time in NY City myself, what I see there is just the tip of the iceberg: pedestrians; cyclists; and motorists; all rewriting the laws to suit themselves because it might slow commerce down if they obeyed the law, or maybe just ignoring the laws to suit themselves. NY Telephone did an internal study of the driving habits of the thousands of drivers it had on NY City streets - admittedly it was more than 18 years ago - but what they found was that the drivers who consistently obeyed the traffic laws GOT THERE FASTER!

Being on the public streets is a cooperative venture and those who choose not to obey the traffic laws should be barred from using those streets.

Just this past week: I was almost broadsided by a bicyclist who chose not to obey a stop sign; I almost hit a different one who also decided that merely slowing for a stop sign, even when cross traffic was present and starting up, was good enough; got stuck behind a pair of cyclists who apparantly are not aware of the law about riding abreast; and observed another couple of such situations from a distance. And there were no "pelotons" present, just duded up cyclists who couldn't be bothered to obey the law.

When are they going to license cyclists and register the vehicles they use on the public roads?

[RoyGBiv]

For me, the only thing that stood out in that video was the U-turn by that tractor trailer. Although it was a shortie, it was still an impressive turn..... He had room to spare.

All the rest was just another day in "paradise"..

[RottenApple]

For me, the only thing that stood out in that video was the U-turn by that tractor trailer. Although it was a shortie, it was still an impressive turn..... He had room to spare.

Give me forty acres and I'll turn this rig around
It's the easiest way that I've found ...
Some guys can turn it on a dime or turn it right downtown
But I need forty acres to turn this rig around.

[G26ster]

Obviously, the OP has never been to Tokyo. They don't call 'em "Kamakazi Cabs" for nothing.

Only if you tell 'em to go Kamikaze...otherwise I had no problem with them.

Back in the "olden days" troops traveled by ship to the far east and Europe. Airplanes were just starting to be used when I went to Korea in '63 aboard the USNS Sultan (17 days) and returned on the USS Mann (28 Days). My second tour in '65 I flew both ways. In any case, I had liberty in Japan, both ways, and believe me, when a cab driver picked you up, he "assumed" you were in a hurry to squeeze in as much as you could, and they drove like maniacs. No request was required It was the same way on R&R in Tokyo and other cities.

I was born and raised in New York City. Driving there was "normal" for me, until I returned after a 33 year absence, to which I became terrified driving in the city. It's just part of the "flow" you get used to, but when you are unfamiliar or out of practice, its CHAOS!

[Keith B]

Another thing you may or may not have noticed is it appears some of the video is sped up at least 1.5 times to appear they are intercepting each other at a quicker speed than they really are. Just look at how fast some of the people appear to be walking.

[Dave2]

When are they going to license cyclists and register the vehicles they use on the public roads?

Hopefully never:
"Here's your birthday present, Johnny"
"WOW!! A bike! Can I ride it over to Bobby's house?"
"Oh no, first you have save up enough money to register it with the government, then you have pay them more to get their permission, in the form of a license, to ride it. Only then may you actually use your bike to go to Bobby's house across the street."