More fun with Swat Teams

[mamabearCali]

So we have seen swat teams do the strangest things. Here is another one. They raided an organic food club in California. What was the dastardly crime that required guns drawn, permit violations. Apparently they were operating under a "not prohibited therefore allowed premise" on herd sharing in the great state of California. California has no law on herd sharing and thus it is has been widely understood as therefore legal. Now even if they were in violation of such a law permit violations are usually handled by a cease and desist notice handled by one sherriff. Not a swat team. And they usually don't arrest the manager of the food club and imprision him with 123K bonds and two of his workers with 60K bonds (BTW they don't distribute the milk--they handle the chicken and the eggs.). They still have not shown warrents--they say they have them but refuse to show them to the owners of the milk they destroyed. What happened to my country? What happened to sanity?

http://www.infowars.com/raw-food-raid-a ... e-sellers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[G.A. Heath]

Until I see a story that does not mention infowars from a reliable source I don't quite go for it. I know I felt the same way about Gun Walker when Vanderboegh broke the story due to his "3 percenters", eventually I got that from a reliable source so I started paying attention. Until it comes from a source that is not infowars this story is just an also-ran for me.

[mamabearCali]

http://www.naturalnews.com/033220_Rawes ... raids.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.foodrenegade.com/rawsome-foo ... n-by-swat/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/0 ... 17540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and from the DA's point of view

http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/080311a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I am told the New York Times is running a story on it tomorrow.

Ask and you shall recieve.

[Medic624]

Seems to me given the fact that it is NOT illegal to sell the foods they were offering without the proper permit and they have been in trouble for the same exact infraction before then so sad to bad if they got arrested and thrown in the pokey. What if a slaughter house was operating out of a garage down the street in the neighborhood around the corner without the proper albeit infrequent inspections by the FDA. The levels of required safety are in place for a reason. Would the required permit make the food any safer? Prob not... BUT... They wouldn't be sittin in the greybar hotel.

Cant build a shed without a proper permit, can't carry concealed without a proper permit, can't sell alcohol without a proper permit... Obviously can't sell goat cheese and milk without one too... Just cause you're a hairy smelly tree huggin' goat herder who wants to be organic and sell your wares ya STILL need to follow the laws.

A year long sting seems a bit odd and were they THAT wiley and covert that it took a full year?

As far as a SWAT team?!? Well the FDA is a Federal entity and they need to utilize their annual fiscal budget or risk losing some of it next year...ha ha ha... Seriously... When I was in the military if we had any money left in the budget and the fiscal year was closing we would be given a blank check to go to supply and get whatever we could justify (or not) to ensure we could justify our need for the same or more $$$ the next year! ( okay a bit off topic...sorry)

Either way...ya got's ta pay ta play...

[Middle Age Russ]

Seriously... When I was in the military if we had any money left in the budget and the fiscal year was closing we would be given a blank check to go to supply and get whatever we could justify (or not) to ensure we could justify our need for the same or more $$$ the next year! ( okay a bit off topic...sorry)

This sort of thing happens in the business world too. The resultant business performance and economic impact of such practices is part of the reason jobs have been offshored in recent years.

I am generally not in favor of government intervention. Where food safety is involved, I even feel that government intervention has gone too far. Even so, I haven't heard enough about this particular incident to feel sympathetic to either side.

[mamabearCali]

As far as it being illegal what they are doing--as far as I can tell it was a herdshare and a CSA so unless they were doing something else--they were not committing a crime. It is simply not legislated. Herd shares and CSA's (which is what rawsome was) are not at this time legislated for or against in California. It is the same reason we can open carry here in VA, because it is not forbidden it is permitted. So unless we want to have to ask permission to rub our noses, and put cream in our coffee, we had better not argue that unless it is allowed by law it is forbidden. Also it has become a pattern of the FDA and CDC to harrass farmers in PA, TN, and other states. These farmers are following state law and yet they still get raids by the FDA and the CDC costing them thousands of dollars.

As far as a use of SWAT over permits. You do need a permit to put up a shed, but if you don't get one do you expect SWAT to show up at your house with guns drawn, and to be thrown in the clink with 130K bonds. Do you expect that your neighbor who helped you bring in a bag of cement to be thrown in jail with a 60K bond. No you get a fine and an order to get said permit. This is a really egregious abuse of authority.

[VMI77]

As far as a use of SWAT over permits. You do need a permit to put up a shed, but if you don't get one do you expect SWAT to show up at your house with guns drawn, and to be thrown in the clink with 130K bonds. Do you expect that your neighbor who helped you bring in a bag of cement to be thrown in jail with a 60K bond. No you get a fine and an order to get said permit. This is a really egregious abuse of authority.

Well, if they don't, they should start, because that's the trajectory we're on now and it doesn't look like change is on the way. This country is full of people with an authoritarian mindset, and the less able people are to identify with someone else the more likely they are to be indifferent to the use of excessive force against them, or even to support it. Just read the comments following internet articles on the abuse of authority --especially in venues that appeal to the broader public.

To quote H.L. Mencken: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

He also said this, way back in 1930:

"Laws are no longer made by a rational process of public discussion; they are made by a process of blackmail and intimidation, and they are executed in the same manner. The typical lawmaker of today is a man wholly devoid of principle — a mere counter in a grotesque and knavish game. If the right pressure could be applied to him, he would be cheerfully in favor of polygamy, astrology or cannibalism. It is the aim of the Bill of Rights, if it has any remaining aim at all, to curb such prehensile gentry. Its function is to set a limitation upon their power to harry and oppress us to their own private profit. The Fathers, in framing it, did not have powerful minorities in mind; what they sought to hobble was simply the majority. But that is a detail. The important thing is that the Bill of Rights sets forth, in the plainest of plain language, the limits beyond which even legislatures may not go. The Supreme Court, in Marbury v. Madison, decided that it was bound to execute that intent, and for a hundred years that doctrine remained the corner-stone of American constitutional law."

[mamabearCali]

The changing of minds starts one person at a time. If we continue on the path we are on we are going to see swat teams surrounding cars for a simple blinker light malfunction. If one more person and then another and then another pays attention to what the various alphabet agencies are doing to oppress people today then we might have a chance. But if we don't tell people what is going on how can they find out. If we say "oh well" tough cookies, even though you broke no law you angered the powers that be--we will all lose in the end. Today it is raw milk, tomorrow it may be your backyard tomato plants (you got a permit for those cherry tomato plants Mister?), perhaps the next day it is your hunting rifle. The second amendment did not clarify which arms you are permitted to bear so if we want to go by you have to have permission or it is illegal they could restrict us all to .177 air pistols or flint lock rifles such as the founders had. Tyranny anywhere within a country threatens freedom everywhere within a country. or to quote Burke "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[Medic624]

As far as a use of SWAT over permits. You do need a permit to put up a shed, but if you don't get one do you expect SWAT to show up at your house with guns drawn, and to be thrown in the clink with 130K bonds. Do you expect that your neighbor who helped you bring in a bag of cement to be thrown in jail with a 60K bond. No you get a fine and an order to get said permit. This is a really egregious abuse of authority.

Ha ha ha... Yeah, you're 100% correct a SWAT raid and the bond is a ridiculous amount of overkill... BUT... It is and was known to them that they needed the permit to provide their wares. I'm not saying I agree with the tactics I'm saying if you're knowingly not going to follow the established rules and regulations don't be surprised when you get called on it. But yes, a fine albeit even one that really stings for blatantly disregarding the requirement to peddle the goat cheese... This ALL could've been avoided with a simple act of gettin' the permit.

(If, as the purveyor of said milk you don't agree with the need for the permit then make an attempt to enact change...)

BUT, had their unpasteurized food gotten someone sick and they died as a result then people would be wringing their hands and saying, WHY DID THIS HAPPEN, WHY DIDN'T THEY HAVE THE PROPER PERMIT TO PROVIDE THAT CHEESE AND MILK!!

As an aside...ewwww, there's a reason for pasteurization (which by the way can be traced back to the 1100's in China) but, pasteurization can help to prevent diseases like; tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli among others. (Thank you Google)

But yes...Seems there has been a lot of overkill lately... TSA groping grandma, ATF harassing 2 a day gun buyers, SCOTUS decision on warrantless entry over the perceived whiff of marijuana, the woman who got in serious trouble for a yard veg garden, the girl and her mother who recently got into trouble and a $530 fine for trying to save a "protected" woodpecker from a cat, or the 2 little girls who got slapped down for selling lemonade...it's getting worse and it ain't gonna get better until we as a nation get fed up or relinquish ALL our civil rights (but that's another topic)

[VMI77]

The changing of minds starts one person at a time. If we continue on the path we are on we are going to see swat teams surrounding cars for a simple blinker light malfunction. If one more person and then another and then another pays attention to what the various alphabet agencies are doing to oppress people today then we might have a chance. But if we don't tell people what is going on how can they find out. If we say "oh well" tough cookies, even though you broke no law you angered the powers that be--we will all lose in the end. Today it is raw milk, tomorrow it may be your backyard tomato plants (you got a permit for those cherry tomato plants Mister?), perhaps the next day it is your hunting rifle. The second amendment did not clarify which arms you are permitted to bear so if we want to go by you have to have permission or it is illegal they could restrict us all to .177 air pistols or flint lock rifles such as the founders had. Tyranny anywhere within a country threatens freedom everywhere within a country. or to quote Burke "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Yes, but unfortunately the problem isn't just ignorance and indifference. We've got a ruling criminal class actively seeking a police state and a rather large element of the population who welcome it. And that's now, when things haven't really started to get rough yet. Ignorance, apathy, and indifference may indeed be overcome by education. However, the educational system is under control of those whose interests are furthered by continued ignorance, apathy, and indifference; as is the MSM (who also have financial incentives to appeal to the lowest common denominator). Also, like every other western government we've got a huge entitlement class of tax feeders who are going to violently oppose any change that means taking more responsibility for themselves (and who have been taught to be this way by decades of public schooling and media propaganda). At best this means restoring Constitutional government and decades of deprogramming. I don't know how we do that, do you?

[VMI77]

(If, as the purveyor of said milk you don't agree with the need for the permit then make an attempt to enact change...)

BUT, had their unpasteurized food gotten someone sick and they died as a result then people would be wringing their hands and saying, WHY DID THIS HAPPEN, WHY DIDN'T THEY HAVE THE PROPER PERMIT TO PROVIDE THAT CHEESE AND MILK!!

As an aside...ewwww, there's a reason for pasteurization (which by the way can be traced back to the 1100's in China) but, pasteurization can help to prevent diseases like; tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli among others. (Thank you Google)

But yes...Seems there has been a lot of overkill lately... TSA groping grandma, ATF harassing 2 a day gun buyers, SCOTUS decision on warrantless entry over the perceived whiff of marijuana, the woman who got in serious trouble for a yard veg garden, the girl and her mother who recently got into trouble and a $530 fine for trying to save a "protected" woodpecker from a cat, or the 2 little girls who got slapped down for selling lemonade...it's getting worse and it ain't gonna get better until we as a nation get fed up or relinquish ALL our civil rights (but that's another topic)

The premise underlying your first point about permits is precisely what makes the overkill you're complaining about possible. If the government has a right to decide that something like pasteurization is so good for me that I can't eat food that hasn't been pasteurized then it can tell me I can't feed birds in my backyard and my children can't sell lemonade. Free people make such decisions for themselves. If I want to eat unpasteurized food that's my business. In a free country you don't need the government's permission to go about your daily business of selling food and eating what you want to eat (admitted oversimplification for the purpose of making a point). In a free country people are responsible for their actions. If the seller misrepresents his product and someone is sicked by it, he commits fraud and incurs liability and perhaps criminal prosecution. If I choose to eat his unpasteurized product and I get sick it's my problem and my responsibility. To quote Mencken again: "When A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel."

[mamabearCali]

Herd shares are not illegal in CA. They are simply not legislated for or against. To make it simple. If I own a cow--I can drink the milk from the cow in any form I want be it raw or pasteurized. If I wish for a farmer to board my cow and pay him a fee for his services then I am still entitled to the milk from my cow. That is what a herd share is. It is not illegal. They broke no law that I have heard of--they are being portrayed as a raw milk retailer when that was not the case at all. They were operating in a different manner than required a permit.

On the raw milk being dangerous--do you eat peanut butter, do you eat spinach, how about peppers, how about turkey? Do you know that the CDC's own data shows that you are 35,000 more likely to be made sick from those foods as opposed to raw milk from a farm. This is not some nut job claiming this--it is from the CDC's own data. So you might find drinking raw milk to be gross but I find sushi to be disgusting, that does not mean it should be criminalized.

[Medic624]

Yes, but unfortunately the problem isn't just ignorance and indifference. We've got a ruling criminal class actively seeking a police state and a rather large element of the population who welcome it. And that's now, when things haven't really started to get rough yet. Ignorance, apathy, and indifference may indeed be overcome by education. However, the educational system is under control of those whose interests are furthered by continued ignorance, apathy, and indifference; as is the MSM (who also have financial incentives to appeal to the lowest common denominator). Also, like every other western government we've got a huge entitlement class of tax feeders who are going to violently oppose any change that means taking more responsibility for themselves (and who have been taught to be this way by decades of public schooling and media propaganda). At best this means restoring Constitutional government and decades of deprogramming. I don't know how we do that, do you?

unfortunately for the "silent" majority we as a general personality (I'll call it a flaw in this sense) but more a trait, believe that justice is natural and have an innate desire to play by the rules. In a larger sense we usually believe that people will do the right thing when given the option or opportunity. Unfortunately, those who are the "ruling class" knew/know this and for generations now have been working tirelessly to bend the rules and now blatantly ignore the rule of law and the U.S. Constitution to enact their socialist/Marxist agenda. They have used our desire to be fair and belief that playing by the rules is mandated and they have been using the established system to make changes as well as the Constitution itself to pervert the very way of life as outlined by the Founding Fathers.

BUT, what they don't/didn't count on is we are ALSO the same people who will vehemently and viciously fight for those rights. Over the course of history democracies have lasted on average 200 yrs without some need of a major tweaking. Power corrupts and we have allowed those in power to distort and use the founding documents against those of us who entrusted the same elected officials who now stand poised to reign in any and all personal freedoms they can. Yes, if we don't get a handle on this soon it WILL get worse before (if) it gets better. I'm not saying an all out revolution as some would suggest but we're heading at breakneck speed toward a tipping point and what happens then is anybodies guess. Hopefully we get fed up as a whole sooner than later and can figure out a way to stop the insanity.

*CRACK* MY SOAPBOX JUST BROKE!!!

[mamabearCali]

Yes, but unfortunately the problem isn't just ignorance and indifference. We've got a ruling criminal class actively seeking a police state and a rather large element of the population who welcome it. And that's now, when things haven't really started to get rough yet. Ignorance, apathy, and indifference may indeed be overcome by education. However, the educational system is under control of those whose interests are furthered by continued ignorance, apathy, and indifference; as is the MSM (who also have financial incentives to appeal to the lowest common denominator). Also, like every other western government we've got a huge entitlement class of tax feeders who are going to violently oppose any change that means taking more responsibility for themselves (and who have been taught to be this way by decades of public schooling and media propaganda). At best this means restoring Constitutional government and decades of deprogramming. I don't know how we do that, do you?

I have no hope whatsoever in our public school system and the mainstream media. Which I why I homeschool my kids and why I let people know about stories like this on boards like this. I am not talking about educating children, I am talking about informing adults. Adults who a few years ago were apathetic but now discomfort has made them pay attention a little more.

A few hundred years ago there were these people that made pamphlets and they cause great havoc in their society by pointing out gov't abuses. Today we don't have pamphleteers, we have blogs. So even with the MSM being complicit in this nonsense more and more of the population is becoming educated. On getting everyone to understand, we don't have to do that. We need about 10% of the population to see and to desire the freedom to go about their lives unfettered. That is the tipping point. It is at that point that an idea becomes mainstream and is even seen as preferable. So there is still hope. We still have elections here, the bill of rights is still in print, there is still hope.

[Medic624]

The premise underlying your first point about permits is precisely what makes the overkill you're complaining about possible. If the government has a right to decide that something like pasteurization is so good for me that I can't eat food that hasn't been pasteurized then it can tell me I can't feed birds in my backyard and my children can't sell lemonade. Free people make such decisions for themselves. If I want to eat unpasteurized food that's my business. In a free country you don't need the government's permission to go about your daily business of selling food and eating what you want to eat (admitted oversimplification for the purpose of making a point). In a free country people are responsible for their actions. If the seller misrepresents his product and someone is sicked by it, he commits fraud and incurs liability and perhaps criminal prosecution. If I choose to eat his unpasteurized product and I get sick it's my problem and my responsibility. To quote Mencken again: "When A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel."

WHAT!?! No, you misunderstood... I could care less about the intake of unpastuerized food... You want it go get it, I could give a care. It's your body and your right to eat what you want. That issue was just me on a tangent.

The issue is they knew they needed the permit, they were told previously, they actively chose NOT to get said permit and now they're paying (ok serious overkill) a hefty price for their desire to ignore the rules.

You somehow took my post completely out of context ... Ya want nasty raw goat cheese knock yourself out..Gorge yourself.. I'll even give ya my share...