Dallas County Records Building

[Commander]

I went to the Dallas County Clerks office today, which is located in the
Dallas County Records Building. There are no metal detectors nor 30.06
signage. After entering and making my way to the elevator I noticed on the
Building directory listing for Probate Courts on the upper floors. Does the
Presence of Probate Courts make the building off limits for CHLs? I concluded
My business as quickly as possible and left wondering if I was in violation.

[speedsix]

...PC46.03(a)(3)...you gotta KNOW...

[MasterOfNone]

This falls into the debate that has been had here in past about the definition of "premises" from 46.035(f)(3), which is used by 46.03 as well:

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

which I interpret to mean the portion of the building that is the court or its offices is off-limits.

[Keith B]

This falls into the debate that has been had here in past about the definition of "premises" from 46.035(f)(3), which is used by 46.03 as well:

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

which I interpret to mean the portion of the building that is the court or its offices is off-limits.

I think if you don't go into the courts area, then you should be OK. Most of them now have secured areas anyway, so you would probably know you were entering that section before you got very far.

[speedsix]

...the law I quoted says "premises"...if I'm in the building, I'm on the premises...I disagree with the above answer...at our city hall, there are several offices...building inspector, courts, water dept...the whole building is posted...I don't think you will find that "portion of a building" buys you any wiggle room...if you are in EITHER the building OR(the key word) a portion of a building used by any government court...carry is prohibited...wonder if there's any case law on THIS one???

[Keith B]

...the law I quoted says "premises"...if I'm in the building, I'm on the premises...I disagree with the above answer...at our city hall, there are several offices...building inspector, courts, water dept...the whole building is posted...I don't think you will find that "portion of a building" buys you any wiggle room...if you are in EITHER the building OR(the key word) a portion of a building used by any government court...carry is prohibited...wonder if there's any case law on THIS one???

I disagree. 46.035 defines premises as 'a building or a portion of a building', so IMO only the portion of the building that is the courts would be off-limits.

And I know of no case law on this.

[speedsix]

...you're "reading" it that if you're not in the portion of the building that has the court offices, you're not on the premises...
...I'm "reading" it that if the court takes up the whole building or just a portion of that building, it's still "premises" and therefore off-limits...I read it as INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE...

[ralewis]

...you're "reading" it that if you're not in the portion of the building that has the court offices, you're not on the premises...
...I'm "reading" it that if the court takes up the whole building or just a portion of that building, it's still "premises" and therefore off-limits...I read it as INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE...

Can we add to the legislative wish list for 2013 the creation of and incorporation into the statutes "The Idiots Guide to Texas Handgun Laws"? (that's only a partially non-sensical suggestion) I have a gazillion of these kinds of questions, and though relying on common sense or what you think they meant may let you sleep at night, that may not keep you from getting arrested some day. The 'concealed means concealed' approach probably is the best practical step you can take (or just disarming as I usually do), but for those of us who want to be legal to the letter of the law, a few "letters of the law" that are clear would be nice.....

[AEA]

Less legalese and more common understandable wording should be used in the Laws of this Country, including Texas CHL Laws!

After all, you can be arrested for ignorance of any "Law", it is not an excuse/exception. How can you be aware of the "Law" and it's meaning if the wording is incomprehensible to the average Citizen?

[speedsix]

...good points...also the knife laws are as vague as "travelling" once was...so we're making some progress..

[Keith B]

...you're "reading" it that if you're not in the portion of the building that has the court offices, you're not on the premises...
...I'm "reading" it that if the court takes up the whole building or just a portion of that building, it's still "premises" and therefore off-limits...I read it as INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE...

Until there is case law, then I am gonna stick with my version. I do not believe if a school had a location in a mall, that the whole mall would be off-limits, just the section they occupied.

Not sure about the probate courts, but I will bet if you go to the 2nd floor there is a secure area with metal detectors. No matter, since the courts are limited to the 2nd floor, I would consider that are the court 'portion of the building'

[speedsix]

...not gonna wear out both our horses jousting about this...but I still disagree...been searching for something in writing...this is only an instructor's word and we both know they make mistakes...I'll post again if I find something in caselaw or more official...
...I don't follow the school/court comparison since they were both addressed seperately and have different specifics...what goes in school and what goes in court buildings/offices aren't the same...
http://www.doubleactionchl.com/cheatsheet.php?kw=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Keith B]

...not gonna wear out both our horses jousting about this...but I still disagree...been searching for something in writing...this is only an instructor's word and we both know they make mistakes...I'll post again if I find something in caselaw or more official...
...I don't follow the school/court comparison since they were both addressed seperately and have different specifics...what goes in school and what goes in court buildings/offices aren't the same...
http://www.doubleactionchl.com/cheatsheet.php?kw=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, they are. Premise is defined for both of them in the same statute.

[Keith B]

Just a follow-up on this discussion for portion of a building. See this thread: viewtopic.php?p=26165#p26165" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and Charles' interpretation when the verbiage was put into the statute and why it is worded that way.

Again, no case law, so Charles says it is not 100%, but his interpretation agrees with the intent and my interpretation.

[speedsix]

...not gonna wear out both our horses jousting about this...but I still disagree...been searching for something in writing...this is only an instructor's word and we both know they make mistakes...I'll post again if I find something in caselaw or more official...
...I don't follow the school/court comparison since they were both addressed seperately and have different specifics...what goes in school and what goes in court buildings/offices aren't the same...
http://www.doubleactionchl.com/cheatsheet.php?kw=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, they are. Premise is defined for both of them in the same statute.

...I was referring to the differences in 46.03(a)(1) and (3)....which are several... ...I KNOW the definition of premise is the same...says so in the chapter...