Have you seen this sign before?

[quoheleth]

A new liquor store opened up in my community, next door to my 2nd favorite donut shop. I had to stop for donuts for a meeting today, and I noticed this sign. Wondering if any of you have seen such an animal before.



It has no 30-06 or 30-05 language on the sign, it's not in English and Spanish, and the letters are too small (I would say approx. 3/4" tall) for the "no guns" section to be legit.

It's not terribly clear in this photo, but under the two warnings on the bottom left, it gives Susan Comb's office as a contact in case of violation; under the NOTICE: no handgun section, it gives the TABC phone number; and under the bottom right section (no consuming), it lists the Texas Code for consuming liquor on premesis.

No where is DPS or Texas code cited regarding handgun laws.

So - is this a new and legit sign for CHL holders, is it serving notice for purpose of identifying armed tresspass, or is it a fancy, gussied-up gunbusters sign?

If not legit, is is something DPS and/or TABC needs to know about as being passed off as authentic?

Quoheleth

[apostate]

The middle section has the 51% language but without the big red 51%. However, the 51% rule applies to on premises consumption - a direct conflict with the lower right. It's a mess. Personally, if the store was near me, I would send a picture of the sign to TABC and let their compliance folk sort it out.

[UpTheIrons]

What I don't get is the "licensed or unlicensed" language in the center section. Take out the "licensed or" and you have the standard sign I've seen in every liquor store I've ever been in. I'd say pass it on to TABC and DPS and let them sort it out.

I think it may be an attempt at a fancy gunbusters sign, but I'm not so sure TABC would take too kindly to the butchering of one of their own signs for personal reasons.

[stroguy]

Looks like a train wreck, transparent, busy and just plain confusing. Maybe if these owners were fined for misleading the public with such used tissue, they would get on-board with the correct rules. I can guarantee one thing, a bad guy with bad intent is not going to read that sign.

[artx]

You can contact the TABC if you want, as others have mentioned, many have had good luck getting them to fix the signs..

What I would do, to save time, I'd lookup the business on the TABC website following the guide here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45112&hilit=tabc+lookup

You can tell if it is a 51% location (sign=red) or not 51% (sign=blue). If sign=blue (and since you said liquor store and not bar, I'm guessing it will) carry away and stay quiet about the sign, since it doesn't matter :) Only a 30.06 sign would have legal weight.

[Jumping Frog]

What I don't get is the "licensed or unlicensed" language in the center section. Take out the "licensed or" and you have the standard sign I've seen in every liquor store I've ever been in. I'd say pass it on to TABC and DPS and let them sort it out.

I think it may be an attempt at a fancy gunbusters sign, but I'm not so sure TABC would take too kindly to the butchering of one of their own signs for personal reasons.

As it shows right now, licensees can ignore the sign.

If the business owner wants to have their premises posted, but is incompetent enough to put up a butchered version of a sign, contacting TABC/DPS may just end up effectively helping him get his sign fixed to constitute legal notice. Then no-one can carry there.

Personally, I would not contact anyone and let sleeping dogs lie.

[C-dub]

If there is nothing that legitimately prohibits a CHLee from carrying in there I would carry away and keep my opinion to myself. And that is all assuming there is not another liquor store that I can go to that is not more gun friendly near by.

[quoheleth]

Good news - for a liquor store, it is a bit out of the way. If I need something NOW, there is one in the front of my subdivision that doesn't mess around with such nonsense. If I'm going after a major stock-up or something special, there are three SPECS within a 15 minute radius of my home.

Really good news - it's a liquor store and not the donut store

Edit to add: I just did a store lookup via the TABC website. I don't know the store name so I did by ZIP (small town - shouldn't be a problem) and nothing came up. Hmmm.... Now, I'm going to have to go back and find the store name and check again!

Q

[A-R]

I have to disagree with the "do nothing" assessment here. What sign to post on an establishment that sells alcohol (for on- or off-site consumption) is a matter of law, not choice (a PC 30.06 sign would be a matter of choice, and I agree "correcting" an improper posting of such helps no one).

If this business is a 51% business, then by law it must post the proper sign and by law a CHL holder may not enter the premises (regardless of whether proper sign is posted).

Now here's where my very much NON LEGAL I-AM-NOT-A-LAWYER opinion comes in. Both PC 30.05 AND PC 46.035 offer a "defense to prosecution" if (summarizing) you enter a premises with a gun that you "should not have entered" but you did not receive valid notification via a properly worded and displayed 30.06 or 51% sign. The difference - IMHO - is that the owner or person in control of the premises has a CHOICE in all instances whether to post a PC 30.06 sign (even in a hospital, amusement park, government meeting etc., no law REQUIRES a 30.06 sign be posted), but in the case of 51% sign (and even in the blue "unlicensed" TABC sign) the owner/controller of the premises is required by law to post the valid sign.

So to elaborate further, if you enter a premises that is not properly signed with 30.06 then (again, IMHO only - IANAL) you can reasonably claim you complied with the INTENT of the owner/controller of the premises. But the INTENT of whether to allow a CHL holder into a bar is clearly spelled out in statute, so entering a 51% location past a sign that almost (but not quite) gets it right, is a much more slippery slope, IMHO, IANAL, etc.

Furthermore, if this is indeed NOT a 51% location, then not only are they illegally posting the wrong sign and need to be corrected, but allowing this to continue serves only to futher confuse other CHL holders who happen upon this business with this sign.

So - to summarize - I think you should clarify this with TABC and ask them to ensure the business posts the correct sign.

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.
note: obviously much of this statute has been truncated, only the portions relevant to 51% carry have been quoted above

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number "51".
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) A business that has a permit or license issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code and that is not required to display a sign under this section may be required to display a sign under Section 11.041 or 61.11, Alcoholic Beverage Code.
(e) This section does not apply to a business that has a food and beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code.

[jimlongley]

For what it's worth, and I know I am running against several people's outspoken opinion here, I would card them, and let them know that their sign is not compliant, and call TABC. In all of the years I have been passing out my little cards, and telling businesses that have improper signage that their signage is improper, but due to their anti-rights attitude I would be taking my business elsewhere, I have yet to see even one of them change their sign to compliant, and I have seen several take down their signs entirely.

I realize that some of the more paranoid think that if you let a business know that their sign is improper they will run right out and get a big ugly proper sign and prevent people from just passing the improper one, somehow "ruining it for the rest of us" as was stated in the past, but I can't see what is being ruined. You have no way of determining the intent of the poster, and it seems to me that any business the goes to the trouble to post any sign is likely to try to enforce it despite its inadequacies. Thinking that an improper sign is just there to comply with the insurance company or some perceived public attitude and is merely a "wink wink nudge nudge" signal that it's OK for CHLs to carry there is wishful thinking at best, and could land you in the back of a neat car with flashing lights and wearing a brand new set of silver bracelets.

I say card them and either talk to a manager about their non-compliant signage or send them a letter. If they choose to post a compliant sign, so be it, they were anti anyway and no truly caring CHL holder should have been crossing their threshold anyway; and if they take down the offending instrument, then it's a boon to all mankind; but if they just leave the old non-compliant sign in place, then it would be an indicator that they really don't care, like Buffalo Wild Wings, who have been put on notice and have never updated.

[MoJo]

The sign appears to be a compilation of everything liquor related. There's the no consumption sign, the wording of the 51% sign and so on. I doubt this is an official TABC sign and as such, TABC should be notified to go look into it. My $0.02 worth.

[bkj]

The middle section wear it says NOTIC is a TABC blue sign. Next to that is the larger sign stating that it is a misdemeanor to consume alcohol on premises. This is the proper signs for a liquor store. The TABC blue sign bars the caring of an unlicensed firearm. It does not apply to a CHL holder. You will see the same signs at Kroger.

[boba]

The sign appears to be a compilation of everything liquor related. There's the no consumption sign, the wording of the 51% sign and so on. I doubt this is an official TABC sign and as such, TABC should be notified to go look into it. My $0.02 worth.

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement ... cation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MoJo]

From the TABC site information on signs.


""What signs are required to be posted at an off-premises establishment such as a convenience store or grocery store?

Four signs are required to be posted at an off-premise retail establishment:

Weapons Warning Sign: It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law.
Consumption Warning Sign: It is a crime (misdemeanor) to consume liquor or beer on these premises.
Public Interest Information Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous.
The signs are available at the local TABC District Offices.

What signs are required to be posted at an on-premises establishment such as a bar or restaurant?

Four signs are required to be posted at an on-premises retail establishment:

Weapons Warning Sign - If alcohol sales constitute less than half of gross receipts, the required sign says: "It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law." If alcohol sales constitute more than half of gross receipts, the signs have 51% in large red letters superimposed over the warning which notes that possession of a concealed weapon on the premises is a felony.
Public Interest Information Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous. (Restaurants that hold a Food and Beverage Certificate are exempt from this requirement.)
Health Risk Warning Sign: Warning of the dangers associated with drinking alcoholic beverages during pregnancy. Visit our Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders page for more information."

[boba]

Health Risk Warning Sign: Warning of the dangers associated with drinking alcoholic beverages during pregnancy. Visit our Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders page for more information."

I see that sign in the men's room in bars. I guess it's for the girls who get knocked up in the men's room.