NYPD Admits It Can't Train Officers in Gun Safety...

[ELB]

...should be the real title to this article.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/n ... e-1.990037" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The NYPD has instructed cops to stop carrying an off-duty gun that has a trigger so light it’s been blamed for a series of accidental discharges, the Daily News has learned.

NYPD spokesman Paul Browne says the Kahr K-9 semi-automatic pistol has led to more than a dozen such shootings — none resulting in a fatality. The shootings have occurred over the last few years, a source said.
...

At the time [five years ago], the NYPD asked Kahr to increase the trigger weight pull — the pressure needed to squeeze off a round — from 7 1/2 pounds to 13 pounds.

The new threshold is a pound more than the pressure needed to fire a Glock, the gun of choice for most NYPD officers.

Oh, and I really like this line:

Police departments generally require a heavier pull because they want officers to realize the serious nature of opening fire.

Jeepers, guys, how embarrassing.

Neither the NYPD brass nor the reporter seem to have a clue about guns.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

At the time [five years ago], the NYPD asked Kahr to increase the trigger weight pull — the pressure needed to squeeze off a round — from 7 1/2 pounds to 13 pounds.

I hope that's not accurate.

I would like to believe that nobody in ANY armed profession would recommend a 13 pound trigger pull.

That's just ludicrous.

[longtooth]

At the time [five years ago], the NYPD asked Kahr to increase the trigger weight pull — the pressure needed to squeeze off a round — from 7 1/2 pounds to 13 pounds.

I hope that's not accurate.

I would like to believe that nobody in ANY armed profession would recommend a 13 pound trigger pull.

That's just ludicrous.

I dont know. Sounds more like NYPD to me.

[gigag04]

There is an agency in town that outfits their officer's Glocks with "New York" 12lb triggers. This thinking is not uncommon, and is somewhat plausible when factoring high streets situations, sympathetic muscle response, and bad practice. I think many agencies train fine, but the individuals themselves don't practice these things. Heavier triggers are a band-aid for this problem.

[Ruark]

And 7 1/2 lbs. is "so light" it can "accidentally discharge"????? Holy crap.

[sookandy]

Maybe they should start carrying Nagant revolvers

[A-R]

Heavier triggers are a band-aid for this problem.

THIS.

[The Annoyed Man]

Well, I certainly hope that Kahr would never be dumb enough to make a 13 lb trigger their default installation. Glock was smart enough to make it an option, rather than the default. I bought my PM9 and my wife's CW9 precisely because they had looooooong but smooth and relatively light triggers. That long pull is the safety, not the pull weight. Adding a heavy pull to a long trigger would simply make the guns harder to shoot accurately, and the NYPD's liabilities would go up correspondingly as a result. NYPD may be a HUGE department, but even if they are, they still are only a small fraction of the overall market, and it would be unreasonable for them to expect that their requirements be imposed on the rest of the market. Glock is the model of that. NYPD employs 34,500 officers. Even if all of them carried Glocks exclusively, and even if all of those pistols were replaced every five years, that would be only 70,000 pistols every 10 years. Compare that to the entire market: Glock has manufactured 2,500,000 pistols between 1982 and the present.

NYPD is the victim of its own policies and an environment which deliberately seeks to discourage familiarity with firearms. Why else are they having problems at a higher rate than other departments? And if 13 lb trigger pulls prevent negligent discharges, then my friend who was at the time an officer with the Pasadena California PD would not have accidentally shot himself with a double action S&W revolver while on duty.

There is simply no substitute for the human brain, properly conditioned.

[Keith B]

During the heat of battle it is not uncommon for someone whose adrenaline is pumping to put unintended pressure on the trigger and squeeze it inadvertently. There have been various incidents that this has happened. Here are just two I know of: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sectio ... id=6581281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; &

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk[/youtube]

When I started as a LEO back in the late 70's we had S&W Model 66's. These double action revolvers were pretty fool-proof on negligent discharges due to the long trigger draw and heavy pull of 12 - 13 lbs. During my time we switched to issuing S&W Model 59's. These were still double action, so the trigger was not that much different. As many departments started moving to other brands and models of pistols, the officers were having issues with the lighter trigger pulls and negligent discharges as they were used to putting weight on the trigger in case they needed to shoot. This prompted the New York trigger for the Glock and other modifications to try and compensate for the lighter weight and shorter pull lengths. And, in their defense, unless you have been in a shooting situation, you do not know how much your adrenaline will affect you on this. You will be doing things you never thought you were capable of, and squeezing the trigger is pretty easy to do inadvertently.

While I tend to disagree with the method of increasing the weight vs. proper training and lots of shooting practice, it is probably an easier and cheaper method of preventing ND's since they probably don't get their officers to the range more than once or twice a year after they come out of the academy.

[OldCannon]

At the time [five years ago], the NYPD asked Kahr to increase the trigger weight pull — the pressure needed to squeeze off a round — from 7 1/2 pounds to 13 pounds.

I hope that's not accurate.

I would like to believe that nobody in ANY armed profession would recommend a 13 pound trigger pull.

That's just ludicrous.

Nope. True story. Welcome to New York City. Any experienced Glock person is familiar with the (in)famous "New York 2" trigger spring. Frankly, I'm stunned that the NY city council doesn't require the NYPD switch to Glocks that must be cocked and fired for each shot

[Excaliber]

NYPD goes through these paroxysms periodically. In the Big Apple, institutional memory regarding firearms issues is short and history repeats itself. They tend to take a strong stand against many otherwise noncontroversial equipment issues until they have so many disasters that they flip flop and approve things that most other agencies have been using for years. It's one of the things that comes along with living in a progressive utopia.

First the brass banned hollow point revolver rounds because they were too destructive. When they had too many "shoot through" situations where round nosed solid lead rounds fully penetrated bad guys and struck officers or civilians on the far side, they went to semiwadcutters. These too did much the same thing. Finally, the brass were dragged kicking and screaming to the inescapable conclusion that hollow points were safer for the cops and innocents nearby.

Next they banned semiautos for officers because they were supposedly unreliable and dangerous. When the bad guys managed to use these unreliable and dangerous tools to wreak havoc on revolver armed officers, the brass finally authorized officers to carry them. However, they repeated the round nose solid point disaster by requiring only full metal jacket round nosed ammo be used in the autos. They got the same results as they did with the round nose solid lead revolver ammo, and finally had to relent and issue semi jacketed hollow points.

If they mandate extremely heavy trigger pulls, they'll almost certainly go back to the very low hit ratios they had when revolver armed officers got into gunfights. I predict when the resulting good guy casualties reach sufficient numbers, they'll once again reverse course and authorize reasonable trigger pull weights.

The logistics are against effectively addressing the training issue because there are too many officers and too few facilities and trainers to get everyone through much more than 1 training day per year. The fact is that officers who won't train on their own time will always perform poorly and will continue to have ND's, regardless of what hardware they carry.

[speedsix]

...it does come down to the man with his finger on the trigger...always...

[speedsix]

...agreed...no more slack than we'd give a Dr. who wasn't good with his scalpel, or plumber with his wrench...being competent with the tools goes with any job...we went to the range once every couple years...I reloaded and went to the woods or the pond to keep up...shot water moccasins at night...whatever...17 years after leaving law enf., I dropped one point out of 250 when I qualified shooting DAO...and I'm an average shot...it's not that hard...