Old Houston, Harris Co. LE revolvers

[Doug.38PR]

What kind of revolvers did HPD and Sheriff dept typically carry? (I know they've always pretty much had their own pick, but generally speaking) I went to a gun show in Houston a while back that had on display old police service guns used by HPD, Sheriff and other small town LE Agencys in the Harris County area from back in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Most of them looked like they were old S&W .38/44 N frame guns.

Any old stories or history lessons?

Type away.

Thank you,
Doug

[G.C.Montgomery]

My Dad bought a S&W, Model 19, K-Frame when he was going through HPD's academy in 1962. For the most part, he carried that .357Magnum on and off-duty all the way through his retirement in 1994 and for several years after that until I bought him a Smith, 642, J-Frame in .38Special. Most of the officers I knew who'd come up with my dad were carrying Smith and Wesson K-frames when I was a kid.

S&W seemed pretty much the standard back then. Prior to the Model 19, I would expect that most cops carrying .357Magnum would have carried the Model 27 or 28, N-Frames. I didn't meet many officers other than patrolmen who carried .44s as a kid. I do remember hearing stories of guys in the academy spending a month's pay on the then "new" Model 29 around the time of the first "Dirty Harry" movie. I guess by the time, I came along in the late seventies and early eighties, the novelty of having the "most powerful handgun in the world" had given way to the expense of the gun and ammunition as well as the burden of wearing all that iron in Sam Brown.

I'll have to ask my dad if he's got any neat stories. The only one that comes to mind is a story told to me when I was about ten years old by one of my Dad's long-time co-workers in Juvenile Division. Anyway, it something to do with a foot chase while my dad was still walking a beat in Third Ward. My dad was may be a year out of the academy at the time. As the story goes, some guy who went by the name "Red," had sworn no cop could catch him. My Dad had a warrant for this idiot and did catch him.

According to the story, my Dad caught the guy after making the him soil his pants with a "warning shot" from that K-Frame which supposedly ventilated the man's crotch as he ran down Scott Street. My Dad swore it didn't quite happen that way. But my Mom and that co-worker say it was par for the course at a time when my Dad was a young, hot-headed, officer and the department dealt with criminals in vastly different manner from what is considered normal today. The only thing my Dad, Mom and my dad's friends agree on is that incident is the only time my father drew or fired his weapon in the line of duty during his 32-years with the department.

[Doug.38PR]

Great story Mr. Montgomery!
I'm trying to imagine a cop driving through the 3rd Ward much less walking through it. How times have changed.

Several policemen have told me a few years ago how they remember some of the elaborate wheelguns some of the other officers would strap on back in the 70s and 80s. 6 inch M28s and 27s and 6 inch Pythons all in these huge holsters going down to their knee. Then whipping them out at the gun range for practice. Seemed pretty ridiculous to them....but on the other hand, a retired sheriff deputy in northeast texas told me a few months ago, while admiring my 6 inch M-28 (same model and length he carried), that there was no better gun for clubing some goon over the head with during a scuffel than a Highway Patrolman as you could be sure it would not get damaged doing so.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Great story Mr. Montgomery!
I'm trying to imagine a cop driving through the 3rd Ward much less walking through it. How times have changed.

Several policemen have told me a few years ago how they remember some of the elaborate wheelguns some of the other officers would strap on back in the 70s and 80s. 6 inch M28s and 27s and 6 inch Pythons all in these huge holsters going down to their knee. Then whipping them out at the gun range for practice. Seemed pretty ridiculous to them....but on the other hand, a retired sheriff deputy in northeast texas told me a few months ago, while admiring my 6 inch M-28 (same model and length he carried), that there was no better gun for clubing some goon over the head with during a scuffel than a Highway Patrolman as you could be sure it would not get damaged doing so.

To be honest, the various wards of Houston have a much worse reputation than they might deserve. I'm not saying crime isn't a problem, but car jackings and armed robberies happen a lot more often at the corner of Chimney Rock and US 59 than they do at the corner of Scott and Wheeler. Still, the rise of drugs and gangs after the 60's certainly have made the 3rd Ward a busier beat than it was when my Dad was working patrol.

Now, when it comes to "bling," I honestly think cops were the first guys to come up with goofy looking jewelry. Many think it was some Asian dude who invented "grilles" in a jewelry shop in Sharpstown mall but they are wrong. I remember seeing a whole bunch of "bling" in the holsters of cops around 61 Reisner as early as 1980. It's rare to see these days because most of the wheelgunners are retired. But every now and then, you'll see some senior patrolman wearing a K-Frame or N-Frame with a huge, jeweled butt cap, complete with gold trim.

[KBCraig]

Now, when it comes to "bling," I honestly think cops were the first guys to come up with goofy looking jewelry. Many think it was some Asian dude who invented "grilles" in a jewelry shop in Sharpstown mall but they are wrong. I remember seeing a whole bunch of "bling" in the holsters of cops around 61 Reisner as early as 1980. It's rare to see these days because most of the wheelgunners are retired. But every now and then, you'll see some senior patrolman wearing a K-Frame or N-Frame with a huge, jeweled butt cap, complete with gold trim.

Texas BBQ guns: the original bling.

[AG-EE]

You guys talking about bling cracked me up.

My dad used to wear a polished nickel Smith 686, 6" .357. With all that weight, how could cops chase anyone down back then? I guess that is why they had to shoot at perps running away:)

[G.C.Montgomery]

HPD vets used to joke that "runnin' is for rookies...," because you can't out run Motorola or "Fox." For those who don't know, "Fox" is the radio callsign for HPD's helicopters.

[Doug.38PR]

Next time you go to an Astros game, you will notice just about all of hte policemen on duty down there are wearing wheelguns. They don't look too old either. Some of them as young as their early 40s. Anyway, lots of HPD wheelgunners in the ballpark

[charlie]

My best friend joined HPD about 1971. His first gun was a mod 19 SW. When he got some spare change, he bought a mod 27, which he carried several years. He got into a shootout with a bad guy who had a Browning HP 9mm. Although my friend won, his thinking changed. He traded the mod 27 for a Colt 1911, which he carried most of the rest of his career. He carried a Commander after making detective and later a
Glock 23 in 40 untill retirement.

I have a SW Mod 58 (41 mag) with SAPD stamped on the side. It is an old San Antonio PD gun. I understand the Mod 58 was their standard issue revolver back in the 60s. Very easy to shoot with the M&P load. Very effective too. I still have it and like to shoot it.

The 41 M&P load was supposed to be the ideal police round. More effective than the 357 without the recoil of a 44. It didn't catch on. Too bad. It's a great round. It can loaded up past standard 44 mag range. It's a true .41 inch in caliber. I understand the 44 mag is actually .429 or
thereabouts, so the two rounds are very close.

[Doug.38PR]

Good story, Charlie!

He changed from a M-27 to a 1911? Most of the talk I hear for changing to semi autos has to do with having a 15 more rounds in the gun because police "feel" outgunned by the criminals (a belief that I obviously don't subscribe to). The 1911 only has one or two more shots than a 6 shot revolver. How did his thinking change? I could understand having a less bulkier and lighter gun to wield (A M-27 is a handful compared to say a Browning Hi-Power), but that would strike me as grounds for strapping his M-19 back on.

Yeah, I haven't heard very much about the .41 magnum. I know there used to be a .41 Long Colt over 60 years ago that was made on the same model as the Colt Official Police .38. Didn't understand why that round didn't stay around since some police complained about the .38 LRN not creating a large enough wound cavity

[Jungle Work]

In June of 1968 two young men left Boys Ranch, a juvenile School for Troubled Youth at Old Tascosa in the Texas Panhandle. The walked to a near by ranch and stole a .257 Roberts rifle and a pick up truck. They were soon spotted in Amarillo, Texas by the Amarillo Police and a chase soon insued. During the chase, one of the young men started shooting at the officers chasing them. The issue pistol at that time for APD was a .38spl.. The officers and gunmen continued the shoot out across Amarillo. Patrolman William Stanley Meadows, one of the officer involved in the chase was shot to death by the young gunmen. Officers reported that the pickup looked like it had been in a hail storm as the .38spls. would not penitrate the metal skin of it. Finally, two Texas Highway Patrolmen, tired of the chase, pulled up behind the pick up, jamed a M-2 Carbine through the bullet holes in their windshied and riddled the truck with fire. One of the "troubled" youths was killed and the other wounded when the truck wrecked. The youth who was left alive, Felix Buddy Fesmire, said that the driver, who was killed had held the rilfe on him, drove the pick up and shot at the officers, killing Officer Meadows. The jury bought that bull and he was set free. Felix Buddy Fesmire then went to Olkahoma where he murdered several members of his family. The State of Olkahoma did not have the sense of humor that Texas did about murder and they sentenced him to Death. The sentence was commuted to life when the SOCTUS commuted all Death Sentences in the US in 1972. Fesmire is still in the Olkahoma Prison System and will probably die in prison.

The officers of the Amarillo Police Department were not real happy with the ineffectiveness of the .38spls and the death of their fellow officer. The Chief of Police responded by ordering the new S&W .41 Mag to issue to his officers. The .41 mag proved to be an adequate pistol for police work.

I had just come home from Vietnam in 1969, on my first extension leave when three friends and I had gone to Amarillo to see some girls we knew.
After visiting them that evening, we were returning to our home when we drove up on a gunfight on North East 8th Street and the Borger Highway.
The Amarillo Police were involved in a gun battle with a Mexican National at a Mexican Bar. The Mexican National had a 30-30 and was shooting at officers from behind a 1953 Buick. From behind the curb of the median where I was lying I watched an Officer fire his .41 mag through the rear of the Buick and it exited the front of the Buick at the head light and hit the Mexican Gunman in the chest. It didn't kill him, but ruined his whole evening. The Amarillo PD carried the .41mag until the mid eighties when they transitioned to Semi Autos.

I entered LE in 1971 in the Texas Panhandle and first carried a Model 19 and a Model 36. After a couple of years I bought a four inch Model 29 and a two and a half inch Model 19. I had both Armoloyed at the Armoloy Company in Ft. Worth as I spent a lot of time on Boat Patrol. I carried them until going over to Semi Autos. Most officers transitioned to Semi Autos in the mid 80s, although some of the OGs were still carrying revolvers until their retirement. Two of the officers in the Agency I worked for refused to give up their Revolvers when we transitioned to Sig 220s and 226s.

Jungle Work

[charlie]

Doug,

My friend's thinking changed primarily because of the ease of reloading the 1911 quickly along with the ballestic capabilities of the 45. The bad guy was burgularizing a business that night and came out firing as my friend rolled up answering the alarm call. My friend was riding solo. He was kneeling behind his open car door when he ran empty. When he ducked down to reload, the BG began to rush him. My friend says his hands were shaking badly and he spilled most of his rounds on the ground as he was trying to jam the rounds into his cylinder (He didn't have speedloaders). As the BG was closing in, my fiend had only managed to get one or two rounds into the cylinder when he realized the BG was almost on him.

He had the presence of mind to remember that S&Ws rotate counter clockwise, positioned the partially loaded cylinder appropriately, snapped the cylinder shut and still kneeling behind the door, raised the model 27 and fired as the BG was almost on him.

The 357 round hit the BG just under the chin traveling slightly upward and exiting through the base of the back of the skull. The BG dropped immediatly. Luckily, the BG was was a poor shot and didn't hit my friend during the exchange.

My friend was very shaken by the incident. He never thought of himself as a great shot and is still awed by how it ended.

He had been toying with the idea of buying a semi auto and this incident pushed him to make the change.

This was in the mid to late 70s and .40 cal semi auto was not available. About the only hi-cap autos available were Hi Powers and the SW mod 59. The 59 came out as I recall in 75. I bought mine in late 75 and it was a brand new model then.

Most shooters were either 9mm or 45 guys. The 45 guys were not convinced of the 9mm's effectiveness. The 9mm guys liked the high capacity. My buddy was conviced that the .45 was the best round. I know he was aware of the model 59 because he had shot mine.

I also forgot to mention that he also had carried a large frame SW revolver (I forget which Mod that is) in 45 long colt, so he really liked 45 caliber ballistics in general. The 1911 was a natural choice for him. He felt he could reload it quickly and he always carried plenty of magazines from then on.

When the .40 came into the picture, he liked the ballistics and switched to a Glock 23 which gave him both hi-cap and a round with more power than a 9mm, which he was not comfortable with. By then, he had been a detective/sergent for quite a few years and felt the glock 23 was easily concealable.

Back then, HPD allowed them to carry just about anything .38 or larger. Nowdays I understand they are restricted to .40 and a choice of 3 or 4 semi autos. Not that that's a bad choice.

[Doug.38PR]

My friend says his hands were shaking badly and he spilled most of his rounds on the ground as he was trying to jam the rounds into his cylinder (He didn't have speedloaders). As the BG was closing in, my fiend had only managed to get one or two rounds into the cylinder when he realized the BG was almost on him.

Charlie,
Dang! That had me on the edge of my seat just reading it. The kind of stuff you see in movies all the time but happens once in a blue moon to one out of a hundred guys.


This is why I carry plenty of speedloaders. I do carry a cartridge loop slide on my belt as it is easier to conceal than a speedloader pouch and practice loading from it constantly but I carry at least two speedloaders in my pocket, if I am wearing my shoulder holster two more in duel pouches under my right arm (one of them loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 gr. for extra penetration power if needed)

I've seen a lot of Harris Co. Sheriff Deputies carrying 1911s. Even met a younger guy my age who prefered and carried a Colt 1911 while on duty.

Officers reported that the pickup looked like it had been in a hail storm as the .38spls. would not penitrate the metal skin of it.

Jungle Work,

Really? That kinda surprises me. Generally I thought .38 158 gr LRN out of 4 or 6 inch service guns would penetrate auto bodies from the 50s & 60s (at least car doors...not all the way through like a magnum gun). I remember reading a story Chic Gaylord related from a Secret Service Agent who, with his partner, were in a shootout with some counterfieters. The agent, armed with a 2 inch Snub nose .38 Special was shooting at a car of gunmen loaded with standard .38 Spl. LRN 158 gr. He realized that his bullets were not penetrating the auto body. His partner, on the other hand, was armed with a 4 inch .38 Special service revolver who penetrated the car and killed the gunnman.
Later the agent armed with the snubbie went all the way up the caliber ladder and got a 4 inch .357 magnum.

Then again, I've heard it said by several on these online forums that the standard .38 Special (and even the .357 Magnum) has been gradually watered down over the decades and by the late 60s may not have been what it was in the 60s. Originally, the standard .38 Spl. (so they say) was equal to or close to the modern .38 Spl.+P 158 gr.

From behind the curb of the median where I was lying I watched an Officer fire his .41 mag through the rear of the Buick and it exited the front of the Buick at the head light and hit the Mexican Gunman in the chest. It didn't kill him, but ruined his whole evening.

Beautiful! I think that's what the original .357 Magnum was designed to be for. Going all the way through auto bodies (and even the engine...of course that sounds a little far fetched for any handgun round)

[Mike1951]

I also forgot to mention that he also had carried a large frame SW revolver (I forget which Mod that is) in 45 long colt, so he really liked 45 caliber ballistics in general.

Finally, someone mentions .45 revolvers! I kept thinking I couldn't be THAT much older than the other posters. I definitely remember some of the old timers carrying .45 Colt revolvers.

[Doug.38PR]

You mean Colt Single Action Army .45?!!!! or Colt DA New Service .45?

I've heard of policemen and deputies back in the 40s and 50s carrying Single Action Army's occasionally, but in the 60s and 70s whew! (not that it wouldn't have it's advantages even today, simplicity and stopping power)