HPD: Off-Duty Officer Stops Attempted Burglary

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:31 am

HPD: Off-Duty Officer Stops Attempted Burglary
POSTED: 8:13 am CST January 18, 2007, KPRC

HOUSTON -- An off-duty Houston police officer stopped an attempted burglary at his home early Thursday morning, officials told KPRC Local 2.
Houston police said a man parked his car at a neighboring home on Plumwood Drive near Clear Valley Drive and approached an officer's personal vehicle.
The man tried to break into the officer's pickup truck while he was still inside, officials said.

"He observed the suspect attempt to get into one of his personal cars so he came outside and confronted the suspect, " Sgt. Anthony Herrera said. "A small struggle ensued and the officer deployed his Taser."
Officials said the Taser gun malfunctioned. The man led the officer on a short foot chase, police said.
"He was able to get the suspect into custody without anyone suffering any injuries," Herrera said.
Police said the man may have been involved in other burglaries Wednesday night and Thursday morning.
The 21-year-old man, who was not identified, has been arrested for robbery in the past, officials said.
Police said the man may face charges of evading arrest and burglary of an automobile.

My reason for this post has to do with inconsistent statements made whenever a firearm is used. From written and TV reports, it is stated that the officer remained hidden in his truck with dark tinted windows when he saw the suspect.
Then you have a police spokesperson , Sgt Herrara, saying that he came outside and confronted the suspect.

So was he in the car or in the house???

P.S. I have NO ISSUE with his actions, I just wonder about statements being given in shooting incidents lately.

It leads me to the case still under investigation with the police shooting a man on a traffic stop a week or so ago.

1. At first they said he was escaping and the officer used the taser which had little effect because he was wearing thick clothing. So ultimately, further down the line, force was escalated by the officer.
2. Now days later, they are saying that the suspect gained control of the taser and used it on the officer, so he escalated his force.

The inconsistent statements to me seems to be around this taser issue. I did not know that the TASER had a recoil button where he can recoil the darts and many feet of wire. I thought it was a pod that was attached to the taser pistol. So if the taser was fired already, how could the suspect use it again on the officer.

These just make the case for me about having a lawyer before making any official statements.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:30 am

Inconsistent news stories generally have little to do with what actually happened or what statements were actually made.

Often the initial reports are wrong because of speculation on the part of witnesses or the reporter. Having actually been in violent encounters I can tell you that what is reported is seldom representative of what happened.

Look at this sentence;

The man tried to break into the officer's pickup truck while he was still inside, officials said

What kind of writing is that? Who is "he"? The subject of the sentence is "the man", so "he" should refer to the man. Poor writing like this leads to reader confusion.

And do they not proof their articles anymore? The two statements in the report DO contradict each other.

Lucky45 wrote: It leads me to the case still under investigation with the police shooting a man on a traffic stop a week or so ago.

1. At first they said he was escaping and the officer used the taser which had little effect because he was wearing thick clothing. So ultimately, further down the line, force was escalated by the officer.
2. Now days later, they are saying that the suspect gained control of the taser and used it on the officer, so he escalated his force.

The inconsistent statements to me seems to be around this taser issue. I did not know that the TASER had a recoil button where he can recoil the darts and many feet of wire. I thought it was a pod that was attached to the taser pistol. So if the taser was fired already, how could the suspect use it again on the officer.

This is why the police object to people who don't know what they are talking about judging them.

The TASER has electrodes on the unit itself, just like a stun gun. With the darts deployed the unit can be pushed against a person and the shock administered by pressing the trigger.

Your belief that initial reports are often wrong is accurate. What appears to be your belief that the police are usually not being truthful is....misplaced.

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:54 pm

txi wrote:

The TASER has electrodes on the unit itself, just like a stun gun. With the darts deployed the unit can be pushed against a person and the shock administered by pressing the trigger.

The Taser that HPD uses fires the darts, I don't think they stand that close to push it against a person. They demonstrate it on numerous reports when officers fire it. It shows them firing at a silver human silhouette from a distance. And anyone watching "ARMED AND FAMOUS" on TV has seen the taser being used also.

PLUS on COPS, I ca't remember in the last 10 years, seeing any police running up on some one and administering the taser. All of them fire darts from a distance with the wires attached, then press the trigger for voltage.
I hope the public is not under the impression that the officer was that close when he fired the taser that he lost control of it, or he was holding the suspect and touched him with the taser, then lost it. Because you have to be extremely "HIGH" to believe that.

What appears to be your belief that the police are usually not being truthful is....misplaced.

Far from the truth, TXI. I follow the old saying, "TRUST BUT VERIFY". I don't follow the follow mulitudes of people blindly, I come to my own conclusion. Nobody is above scrutiny, just because they are wearing a uniform does not mean they are not human. To Err (Error) is human.

And I'm not bashing anyone either, so I hope no miscommunication that I'm against LEO. In the original post, I said there was no issue with his actions. Only about what statements people have been making after a shooting in the last couple weeks.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:40 pm

Lucky45 wrote:txi wrote:
The TASER has electrodes on the unit itself, just like a stun gun. With the darts deployed the unit can be pushed against a person and the shock administered by pressing the trigger.

The Taser that HPD uses fires the darts, I don't think they stand that close to push it against a person. They demonstrate it on numerous reports when officers fire it. It shows them firing at a silver human silhouette from a distance. And anyone watching "ARMED AND FAMOUS" on TV has seen the taser being used also.

All TASERS fire darts. They ALL also have electrodes for contact use. It is called "stun backup capability"

I have seen it demonstrated in real life. I don't get my information from some TV show full or retards.

Read TASER spec sheet and you will see "stun backup capability".

PLUS on COPS, I ca't remember in the last 10 years, seeing any police running up on some one and administering the taser. All of them fire darts from a distance with the wires attached, then press the trigger for voltage.
I hope the public is not under the impression that the officer was that close when he fired the taser that he lost control of it, or he was holding the suspect and touched him with the taser, then lost it. Because you have to be extremely "HIGH" to believe that.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Once the darts are deployed, they can be ripped out, torn out, or the cables pulled from the unit. If that happens the officer can still use the device as a stun gun, regardless of all of your TV viewing experience. If the Bad Guy gained control of the TASER he could use it against the officer.

Facts, not TV.

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:41 pm

You are right TXI,

I need to stop watching these fictional police shows taped in a studio with low budget actors.

I can't see any HPD officer or any LEO closing the gap on a BG with a stun gun backup. Maybe in your town. Especially, since the BG already tried to run away, was resisting and supposedly pulled out the electrodes fired previously. In my opinion.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:58 pm

I believe I can difuse this by saying that everytime we see some public interest "spot" taped for the TV audience, that it is more "exciting" and "ratings grabber" to show the TASER actually being used "like" a gun...

Thats really all it is...Its more exciting to see the dart shooting out and hitting that foil covered carboard target and get that audio as well as it is being "zapped"...

Anyone who knows how a TASER works, and knows whom some of the manufacturers are, knows that most models come with a deployable (single firing) "cartidge" system that "shoots" the darts into the target, thus allowing a safer debilitating charge into the target, and if that fails or the darts are removed for some reason, the "option" to close the target and apply a direct contact "zap" (for lack of a better term) is an option...But that option is rarely (and reluctantly) used...

Y'all be nice nah, ya hear!

Don't make me put ya in time-out!

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:20 pm

Lucky45 wrote:You are right TXI,

I need to stop watching these fictional police shows taped in a studio with low budget actors.

I can't see any HPD officer or any LEO closing the gap on a BG with a stun gun backup. Maybe in your town. Especially, since the BG already tried to run away, was resisting and supposedly pulled out the electrodes fired previously. In my opinion.

Again that shows that you don't understand the dynamics of police work. If the guy ran, then the cop chased. You have to "close the distance" to apprehend him, especially if you have not been able to place another cartridge in your TASER because you were running after him. What would YOU do? stand there and watch him run away, run the other direction, or just hope that he complies now?

It is also possible that the bad guy turned on the officer and closed the distance himself. I have BDTD, and it can easily get to the point where the bad guy was able to gain control of the TASER.

Your contention was that the cop was not being truthful because the TASER had already been fired so it could not be used against the officer.

So if the taser was fired already, how could the suspect use it again on the officer.

I have described how. Now you don't think it could happen the way described just because you can't see it".

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:27 pm

I don't think we are out of line, stevie. We can have a discussion of our views without going to blows. I'm not offended and hope TXI isn't.

What would YOU do? stand there and watch him run away, run the other direction, or just hope that he complies now?

Point 1. use RADIO

Point 2. TASER RETENTION DRILLS needed in the Academy/Training. Plus stevie touched on it abit, LEO "RARELY" use that option.

Point 3. I see your view on that and agree.

Lastly, what is the usual policy when an officer has a prisoner in the back of the vehicle.? i.e. Can they run 1 or 2 miles or away from the vehicle and leave them there til they return or what?

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:13 pm

Lucky45 wrote:I don't think we are out of line, stevie. We can have a discussion of our views without going to blows. I'm not offended and hope TXI isn't.

What would YOU do? stand there and watch him run away, run the other direction, or just hope that he complies now?
Point 1. use RADIO

an officer is expected to act, especially in a situation where you have already used force. The luxury of deciding to kick back and call in the troops does not exist, and would likely get one fired for cowardice.

Point 2. TASER RETENTION DRILLS needed in the Academy/Training. Plus stevie touched on it abit, LEO "RARELY" use that option.

Too late once he gets that TASER from you. You not only practice retention drills, but what to do if retention fails and the BG gets your weapon.

Lastly, what is the usual policy when an officer has a prisoner in the back of the vehicle.? i.e. Can they run 1 or 2 miles or away from the vehicle and leave them there til they return or what?

I don't see the point, plus it would depend on the circumstances. Generally one should never leave a prisoner.

If the officer in our scenario already had one guy in the back seat he would most likely not be able to pursue a second one on foot. Again, I don't know the circumstances.

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:55 pm

txinvestigator wrote:

an officer is expected to act, especially in a situation where you have already used force. The luxury of deciding to kick back and call in the troops does not exist, and would likely get one fired for cowardice.

I don't believe that an officer not jeapordizing his safety and calling for backup is seen as cowardice. You have some tough standards, TXI.

I don't see the point, plus it would depend on the circumstances. Generally one should never leave a prisoner.

If the officer in our scenario already had one guy in the back seat he would most likely not be able to pursue a second one on foot. Again, I don't know the circumstances.

The vehicle was pulled over on traffic stop and the female driver was arrested for an outstanding warrant. She was handcuffed in the back seat of the patrol car when the incident occured.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=4916828

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:35 pm

I also believe that in a situation where less than lethal force is used (TASER), and there is the chance that there are multiple suspects involved...I am wondering if using the TASER first in that situation would even cross my mind...I don't think you can reload another cartridge fast enough, even if you could, or should even try to...

I still think folks on your shift will come a running if you ask, and will think nothing ill about you for doing so...No matter what the situation is...

This whole thread has got me to thinking, and my interest is strictly in the engineering and technical aspect of the mechanism...I know the devices are expensive, and reloads are not cheap...But in the training to use this devise, are there cheaper ways to train, and would there be a chance for someone like me to be able to get familiar with one of these TASER's if only to satisfy a general knowledge of this device???

I've seen the TASER's HPD uses, and know that the manufacturer sells similar models to the public, but for about $1000 with 6 reloads, I think thats the package I have seen advertized over the last year or so...

srothstein · Post by **srothstein** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:40 am

stevie_d_64 wrote:Anyone who knows how a TASER works, and knows whom some of the manufacturers are, knows that most models come with a deployable (single firing) "cartidge" system that "shoots" the darts into the target, thus allowing a safer debilitating charge into the target, and if that fails or the darts are removed for some reason, the "option" to close the target and apply a direct contact "zap" (for lack of a better term) is an option.

A couple of minor points that may help solve the debate, or increase it.

First, Taser is a brand name and is made solely by Taser International. It is different from every other stun gun on the market except the Stinger (and I do not recall who makes that offhand). The taser is different because it is not just an electrical charge between the electrodes, but a pulsed wave designed to interfere with the nervous system control of the muscles, as opposed to causing the muscle to contract, which is the normal response to an electrical shock (remember applying electricity to dissected frogs in high school to get the legs to move?).

Now, a Taser is a pistol shaped object that comes with a cartridge that clips into the muzzle end. The cartridge will fire two darts on wires out to the subject to complete the circuit. On the end of the cartridge is two electrodes that will also work with the darts or alone to complete a circuit and provide the shaped impulse. This is done when the darts do not make good contact or the wires break and is called the drive stun technique. This really only works well when one dart makes good contact and the Taser is placed against a different spot on the body.

There are also two electrical contacts on the muzzle end of the Taser itself. If the cartridge is removed, these two contacts can be used in a drive stun technique also. There is a big caveat in this however, that if the cartridge is not present, the Taser will now work as a regular stun gun and will not provide the pulses, just applying a regular shock. Just as an aside, when you check the Taser for proper function, this is the way to see if it is providing a charge. You will see the spark between these two contacts and it won't cost you a cartridge (which is pretty expensive).

Both of these techniques are taught during the classes to be certified to carry the Taser. I do not know how often the second technique is used since I have never seen an officer not carry the Taser with the cartridge in it. However, I do know officers trying to make arrests will use the first mentioned drive stun technique if the probes do not work on their own.

To further add fuel to this debate though, I will point out that the Taser is designed to carry a spare cartridge mounted in the butt of the grip. This gives the officer (or the bad guy if he gets control of it) a second shot capability in fairly short order. I do not know how many bad guys are aware of this to take advantage of it though. I am also unaware how many know about the drive stun capability.

I am curious how the officers can truly justify the use of a Taser on a suspect who is running away. I am aware of how the law allows it, but most departments have much more restrictive policies on use of force and a person running is not using force against the officer. We seem to be seeing less of this type of tasing after a department has had them for awhile, but when a department first gets Tasers, I seem to see more reports of tasings I would call questionable.

And just in case you want to learn more about Tasers, here is their home page:

http://www.taser.com/

If you have money, I recommend you consider caryring a personal Taser for self defense. It is expensive at first, and their advice is to hit the bad guy with it, then drop it and run while it keeps him immobilized for 30 seconds. Of course, if you do use it and report the use to the police, Taser will replace yours for free with a copy of the police report, which makes the cost go down when you think about it.

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:41 pm

Lucky45 wrote:
What would YOU do? stand there and watch him run away, run the other direction, or just hope that he complies now?
Point 1. use RADIO

I agree. The officer should, if he has the chance to do so, radio for assistance and then deal with the suspect. Calling for an assist doesn't cause the suspect to stop fleeing, so the officer still has to pursue alone until backup arrives.

Lucky45 wrote: Point 2. TASER RETENTION DRILLS needed in the Academy/Training. Plus stevie touched on it abit, LEO "RARELY" use that option.

Most officers have received some sort of retention training, but that's no guarantee of anything it's only one more thing to help you. What if the suspect is much bigger and stronger than the officer? The suspect may still be able to get the TASER away from the officer.

Even if the officer is much bigger and stronger than the suspect, in the middle of a fight lots of things can happen and it's easy to see where the officer may not be able to, or may choose not to, protect the TASER.

There are too many variables in a fight to assume that a certain thing should have happened a certain way.

In this case the suspect not only disarmed the officer of his TASER, the suspect used the weapon against the officer. A TASER has the ability, and in fact is designed to, completely incapacitate a person. The police officer knows this. Therefore, when a suspect disarms an officer of his TASER and uses it against the officer the officer can reasonably assume that he is about to be incapacitated.

An armed officer who has been incapacitated is vulnerable to being disarmed of his gun since he cannot use weapon retention techniques while being incapacitated by a TASER. Therefore it is reasonable to believe that the officer felt that he needed to use deadly force to stop the suspect from incapacitating the officer and:

(a) disarming the officer, thereby creating an armed suspect which poses a threat to the community,

(b) causing serious injury or death to the officer while the officer is incapacitated,

(c) disarming the officer and using the officer's gun against the officer, and possibly against arriving backup officers.

I see nothing wrong with the officer's actions based on the story that was printed in the paper. In fact, I think the officer did the best thing he could have done, which was attempt to arrest a fleeing suspect after securing the first suspect.

Lucky45 wrote: Lastly, what is the usual policy when an officer has a prisoner in the back of the vehicle.? i.e. Can they run 1 or 2 miles or away from the vehicle and leave them there til they return or what?

I guess that depends on the circumstances. If the suspect is violently attempting to break out of the car or in need of medical attention then I doubt he would be left unattended, but if some greater need arises (fleeing suspect or officer needing assistance) then I don't see any reason that a detained suspect couldn't be left in the secure area of a patrol car. leaving a suspect in a car unattended isn't a good idea, but sometimes it might be better for an officer to do so while a more urgent need is attended to. I don't think any agency would make an absolute rule about this subject that didn't take into account the possibilities.

In this particular case, the female suspect was already secured in the patrol car and I see no reason why the officer should not continue to investigate the incident, including the pursuit of a fleeing suspect. The female prisoner was in no apparent danger and was secured in the back of the patrol car. What reasonable objection could anyone have to the officer pursuing the suspect at that point?

Lucky45 · Post by **Lucky45** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:35 pm

Hey Odin,

I think you might be a little confused about what we were talking about. The original post was about an off-duty cop and then we went of on a tangent discussing another police shooting that took place about 2 weeks ago.

Your response was mixing the two seperate incidents together. Just start from the top of the discussion and read again and see if you follow.

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:45 pm

Lucky45 wrote:Hey Odin,

I think you might be a little confused about what we were talking about. The original post was about an off-duty cop and then we went of on a tangent discussing another police shooting that took place about 2 weeks ago.

Your response was mixing the two seperate incidents together. Just start from the top of the discussion and read again and see if you follow.

I see, I edited my response to address the incident you were referring to.