Billy Joe Shaver charged in shooting

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O6nop
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Billy Joe Shaver charged in shooting

Post by O6nop »

I'm guessing he had a CHL, but may not have it for long if convicted of having his gun while in the bar. However, if the offense occured outside the bar, would it still be a violation? Does it depend on if he was drinking? It doesn't read as if he got a blood/alcohol test.

http://www.austin360.com/music/content/ ... haver.html
Billy Joe Shaver charged in shooting, attorney says
Incident was at Lorena bar.
By Michael Corcoran

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF


Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Singer-songwriter Billy Joe Shaver, who's been called the poet laureate of Texas music, has been charged with aggravated assault in connection with a shooting outside a Lorena bar Saturday night, his lawyer said.

Shaver's Austin-based attorney, Joe Turner, said his client acted in self-defense.

"The other guy was the aggressor," said Turner, who spent Sunday interviewing witnesses at the bar. "He was intoxicated and followed Billy Joe outside the bar with a knife."

The man, who was shot in the cheek, was reported by the Waco Tribune-Herald to be in stable condition at Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center on Sunday. Police have not released his name.

Lorena police say the shooting occurred at 8:30 p.m. Saturday outside Papa Joe's Texas Saloon on Interstate 35, 89 miles north of Austin. The bar's owner, who would identify herself only as Gloria, said she had introduced Shaver, 67, to the other man earlier in the night.

Turner said he'd been told by the Lorena chief of police that a warrant has been issued, but he hadn't seen it. He said Shaver will surrender to police when he's served with the warrant.

He said Shaver also was charged with possession of a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served.

A representative of Shaver's Houston-based record label said before the warrant was issued that the songwriter planned to honor a scheduled appearance at 5 p.m. today at Waterloo Records in Austin. Shaver's "Greatest Hits" album comes out today on Compadre Records, the label recently bought by Matthew Knowles, singer Beyoncé's father.

A fixture on the Texas songwriting scene, Shaver got his big break in 1973, when Waylon Jennings recorded nine Shaver compositions, including the title track on the landmark "Honky Tonk Heroes" LP. His songs have also been covered by Kris Kristofferson, Johnny Cash and Elvis Presley.

Shaver served in an unofficial capacity as author-musician Kinky Friedman's "spiritual adviser" during Friedman's run for governor last year.
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txinvestigator
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Post by txinvestigator »

I wouldn't assume he had a CHL. Either way, carry inside a bar is illegal. However, I also would not assume he had the gun in the bar. The news report does not give enough information to make that determination. News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete.

There is NO requirement for a blood alcohol test for a conviction of Carrying while intoxicated. Notice the charge is not carry while drinking. I don't think it would matter either way for a case of Carry in a bar or Agg assault.

Texas Penal Code

§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises
consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;


(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether
the handgun is concealed.



§49.01. Definitions.


(2) "Intoxicated" means:

(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties
by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a
drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those
substances, or any other substance into the body
; or

(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.
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"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan

Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Wildscar
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Post by Wildscar »

txinvestigator wrote:However, I also would not assume he had the gun in the bar. The news report does not give enough information to make that determination. News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete. There is NO requirement for a blood alcohol test for a conviction of Carrying while intoxicated. Notice the charge is not carry while drinking. don't think it would matter either way for a case of Carry in a bar or Agg assault.
News Story wrote: He said Shaver also was charged with possession of a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served.


txinvestigator wrote:News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete.
Totally Agree so that might blow away the first quotei pointed out. :roll:
Wildscar
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txinvestigator
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Post by txinvestigator »

Wildscar wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:However, I also would not assume he had the gun in the bar. The news report does not give enough information to make that determination. News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete. There is NO requirement for a blood alcohol test for a conviction of Carrying while intoxicated. Notice the charge is not carry while drinking. don't think it would matter either way for a case of Carry in a bar or Agg assault.
News Story wrote: He said Shaver also was charged with possession of a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served.




txinvestigator wrote:News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete.
Totally Agree so that might blow away the first quotei pointed out. :roll:
Yep, without a CHL he was unlawful to have the gun on the premise at all, parking lot included.
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Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Wildscar
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Post by Wildscar »

txinvestigator wrote:
Wildscar wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:However, I also would not assume he had the gun in the bar. The news report does not give enough information to make that determination. News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete. There is NO requirement for a blood alcohol test for a conviction of Carrying while intoxicated. Notice the charge is not carry while drinking. don't think it would matter either way for a case of Carry in a bar or Agg assault.
News Story wrote: He said Shaver also was charged with possession of a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served.
txinvestigator wrote:News reports are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete.
Totally Agree so that might blow away the first quotei pointed out. :roll:
Yep, without a CHL he was unlawful to have the gun on the premise at all, parking lot included.
No argument there. I just wish that if people want to carry on them then go though the proper channels to do it. Yeah, I want to carry right away but I force myself to play be the rules. When things like this happen it doesn't matter if you have a CHL or not. Usually the first response from and anti is never good.
Wildscar
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fiftycal
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Shaver shooting

Post by fiftycal »

Has anyone determined that the place in question is a BAR? Was it posted with a 51% sign? Does the place sell anything other than booze?
txinvestigator
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Re: Shaver shooting

Post by txinvestigator »

fiftycal wrote:Has anyone determined that the place in question is a BAR? Was it posted with a 51% sign? Does the place sell anything other than booze?
Austin American Statesman wrote: has been charged with aggravated assault in connection with a shooting outside a Lorena bar Saturday night, his lawyer said. .............Incident was at Lorena bar...............He was intoxicated and followed Billy Joe outside the bar with a knife.".......................Lorena police say the shooting occurred at 8:30 p.m. Saturday outside Papa Joe's Texas Saloon ............The bar's owner.............................

http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=GW ... l&ct=title
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Wildscar
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Post by Wildscar »

fiftycal wrote:Has anyone determined that the place in question is a BAR? Was it posted with a 51% sign? Does the place sell anything other than booze?
As TXI pointed out it was a bar. Even if it was posted or not it still a 51% establishment. You can still get popped
Texas Penal Code wrote: Texas Penal Code

§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises
consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;



(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether
the handgun is concealed.



§49.01. Definitions.


(2) "Intoxicated" means:

(A)not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties
by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a
drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those
substances, or any other substance into the body; or

(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.[/b]
Does not say anywhere that the 51% sign need to be posted. This is where having a CHL comes with a bit of personal responsibility to know your surroundings. If in fact it was only a bar and not a bar and grill. The name alone would lead me to belive it nothing but a bar. However, it’s pure speculation that this establishment servers nothing but alcoholic beverages. There’s not enough info in the stories to say one way or the other.
Wildscar
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txinvestigator
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Post by txinvestigator »

The license number is BE502755. I bet our local TABC member can decipher that number.
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Post by KBCraig »

txinvestigator wrote:The license number is BE502755. I bet our local TABC member can decipher that number.
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/pubinfo/ros ... ses1.shtml

BE - RETAIL DEALER'S ON PREMISE LICENSE: License authorizes holder to sell beer for consumption on or off premises in a lawful container to the ultimate consumer but not for resale. Requires adequate seating area for customers.


Unless they have this next one, I'm thinking it must be a 51% bar (unless at least 50% of their sales are for off-premises consumption, which is possible with a BE license):

FB - FOOD AND BEVERAGE CERTIFICATE: A Food and Beverage Certificate may be issued to the holder of a Beer Retailer’s On-Premise Permit or Wine and Beer Retailer’s Permit if food service is the primary business being operated on the licensed premises or to the holder of a Mixed Beverage Permit or Private Club Permit if food service is available on the premises and the gross receipts of alcoholic beverages do not exceed 50 percent of total gross receipts.

The holder must meet requirements of the Code and Rule 33.5 concerning minimum number of entrees served, hours of service, etc.

Certificate allows holder to be exempt from posting a conduct surety bond.


That's all just copy and paste from the TABC site. I'll let Steve offer the expert opinion.

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Post by jimlongley »

Hmmm,

My cousin, who is a Texas Country Music performer, introduced me to Shaver a few years ago, at the Sons of Hermann Hall in Dallas. I was carrying because I had done my homework in advance and they are not a 51% operation, and I was not drinking.

Shaver noticed that although my cousin offered to buy each of us a beer, neither of us accepted. I told him that I was "designated" (my wife and brother and sister in law were there too) which was not too much of a lie. Shaver stated then that he had not had a drink in some years, and the way I understand it that continues today. He doesn't drink anymore, so a BA test would probably not have much to see.

OTOH, even if he was paid performer, it would be illegal for him to carry in the bar if it qualified as a 51% establishment, posted or not.

A radio DJ on KHYI, "The Range" said, today, that "everyone who knows him knows that Shaver always carries a 'snub nose'" but could not say if he was CHL or not. That could make life very interesting for Shaver, and more to write songs about.
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Post by srothstein »

Well, Kevin and TXI beat me to part, so i will finish it up. If you ever want to have some fun, go to the TABC web site and look on the upper right corner for the "Public Inquiry" link. This link will allow you to get all sorts of listings, including all of the TABC licenses for a city or county.

By clicking on this and doing a quick search, I find that they have just the BE license already mentioned. This means the establishment is licensed for the sale of beer for on premises consumption only, and does not also sell a significant mount of food ( they can sell some snacks or things, but no cooking basically). This makes it a classic old Texas beer joint, which is a 51% establishment, and probably closer to a 99% place.

If he had a CHL, he would be charged with 46.035 if he brought the gun inside the bar with him. If he did not have a CHL, then he would be charged with 46.02 (felony), whether the gun was in the truck or inside the bar with him.

Since the later story today shows him on bond for agg. assault with a deadly weapon and unlawfully carrying on a licensed premise, I must assume he had no CHL. That is from the weapon charge,not the assault charge.
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Shaver

Post by fiftycal »

Yes and we all know how well informed and knowledgeable reporters are. In various articles today, I "saw" where he was charged with "carrying a firearm in a prohibited place", "carrying a firearm in a place where alcohol is sold" and "unauthorized weapon possession". And I still have not seen where Shaver's CHL status has been mentioned.

He was in Austin tonight after bailing out on $50K. Since he's probably friends with the Waco DA, I imagine the charges will go away.
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Post by KBCraig »

If only Kinky was the governor... :grin:
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Post by KBCraig »

srothstein wrote:I find that they have just the BE license already mentioned. This means the establishment is licensed for the sale of beer for on premises consumption only, and does not also sell a significant mount of food ( they can sell some snacks or things, but no cooking basically). This makes it a classic old Texas beer joint, which is a 51% establishment, and probably closer to a 99% place.
Steve, I'm curious... the "BE" description I copy/pasted from the TABC site said such licensees may "sell beer for consumption on or off premises".

But what is a "lawful container"? Does that mean only individual drinks may be sold, and that such drinks can be carried off the premises and consumed elsewhere? And that they may be sealed when sold? Can packages be sold, such as six-packs to go?

I'm asking, because of the 51% threshold... if a BE licensee sells enough "to go" beer to drop below 50% "consumption on premises" sales, then 46.035 wouldn't apply.

This is a good example why the nature of the alcohol license shouldn't determine whether or not carry is legal. We've got a fairly well known individual, who is sober from most accounts, followed into the parking lot and threatened with a knife. He gave up his right to self defense... where, exactly?

This one is going to be worth selling popcorn.
:grin:
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