CC in State Parks

[Doug.38PR]

My church singles dept is taking a trip to Lake Somerville State Park in two weeks. Can you CC in state parks? Leave gun in car?

[kw5kw]

CC in a state park as much as you would like.

[GreenGuy]

CC in a state park as much as you would like.

with a valid CHL that is

[Velocity]

CC in a state park as much as you would like.

Might bring this along too, just in case..

http://www.packing.org/state/documents/ ... letter.gif

[dihappy]

I wonder if it matters that Robert Cook is Director now :)

[Doug.38PR]

This sounds good. I knew National Parks were off limits, but I wasn't entirely sure about State.

If I go, I will be carrying. (they have bear repellant on their things to bring list, so I will be carrying my .38 Spl. 4 inch loaded with hot Buffalo Bore +P 158 gr.) Didn't think they had bears in that part of Texas....I guess it was just listed for humor. Still you don't know what other problems might arise in the bush.

[BoneDigger]

Yes, it is legal to carry on a State Park. However, I think Somerville is a leased property from the COE. If that's the case, it is Federal land and they will have jurisdiction over the CHL issue. Better check that out...

Todd

[Doug.38PR]

(f) Arms and Firearms.
It is an offense to:
1. possess a firearm with a cartridge or projectile in any portion of the mechanism, except when authorized by the commission or the director;
2. display a firearm, except when authorized by the director; and
3. discharge across, in, or into a state park any arm, firearm, or device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal or damaging or destroying public or private property except when authorized by the director.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... omerville/

I pulled the above quote from the above website. The Army Corp. of Engineers built the park but it is managed by the State of Texas parks & wildlife.

Where does this leave a CHL holder? Is the above language binding to CHL or does it require a 30.06?

[BoneDigger]

I am an employee of TPWD and I can tell you that it is indeed legal to carry on a state park, as long as you have a CHL and follow all applicable regulations. There is a memo from Andy Sansom (previous TPWD exec. director) that specifically states this to be the case.

HOWEVER, TPWD regulations DO NOT supercede Federal regulations on a federal property that we lease. You need to brush up on Federal regulations. I believe that it is illegal to carry on COE property, but I may be wrong.

Todd

[Velocity]

I am an employee of TPWD and I can tell you that it is indeed legal to carry on a state park, as long as you have a CHL and follow all applicable regulations. There is a memo from Andy Sansom (previous TPWD exec. director) that specifically states this to be the case.

Yes, see my post earlier in this thread for a link to that letter (which I'm glad to hear still applies!).

HOWEVER, TPWD regulations DO NOT supercede Federal regulations on a federal property that we lease. You need to brush up on Federal regulations. I believe that it is illegal to carry on COE property, but I may be wrong.
Todd

So here's another twist. In west Houston, there is a shooting range called "American Shooting Centers". This range is located on CoE land - in the addicks reservoir, I believe.

So - you can take your gun TO the range, and use it there, but you can't carry it concealed (even with a CHL) on the land going TO the range?

[TxFire]

I have wondered about this whole COE parks run by the State. Who would enforce any Federal Laws in a COE park? All I seem to recall seeing are Rangers. Can they enforce Federal Law? What am I missing here?

[BoneDigger]

Yes, there are two types of rangers. There are State Parks rangers, who work for the state, and there are COE rangers, that work for the Feds. The chances are that you probably would not be caught or penalized, but I personally would not take the chance.

Federal properties, regardless of who they are leased to, are still federal property and all applicable laws must be followed. Hunting is allowed on federal land, and carrying hunting weapons are allowed during that time. However, CC is not allowed unless I am mistaken.

Todd

[Stupid]

My.. this is confusing!!! Where's Rick Perry???

[txinvestigator]

I have wondered about this whole COE parks run by the State. Who would enforce any Federal Laws in a COE park? All I seem to recall seeing are Rangers. Can they enforce Federal Law? What am I missing here?

Texas Peace Officers, unless deputized as Federal officers, cannot enforce federal law.

I heard some radio talk show clown institing they COULD, "because a cop doesn't let a bank robber go, and robbing a bank is a federal crime"

I guess he is not aware that Texas has laws against robbery and aggravated robbery.

[KBCraig]

I posted this on the Carry at Corps of Engineers Park thread:

I'm going to a Corps of Engineer's operated park this evening. Rules say loaded firearms are prohibited in one place, then it says state and local laws regarding firearms are applicable. Do you think I can carry there with my Texas CHL?

When they say state and local laws are applicable, they mean that they assimilate the state firearms law, so that they can charge you under those laws if you violate them. But they also have their own, stricter, laws than those of Texas.

(CFR 101: when Congress doesn't pass a specific law, but gives a federal agency authority to issue "rules", and those regulations, when they're recorded in the Code of Federal Regulations, have the weight of law. Federal law restricting firearms on federal property only applies in buildings, but many agencies have used their rule-making authority to ban or restrict firearms. That's how the National Park Service bans firearms, and it's how the CoE restricts firearms.)

Here's the relevant cite, from 36 CFR 327, which is titled, "RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS". In bureaucrabonics, that means all Corps land or water where you can hunt, fish, camp, picnic, visit, etc.

36 CFR 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projective firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

And 327.8 only says that hunting fishing and trapping are generally prohibited except as authorized by the district commander.

The rules you saw may have been a summary, instead of the official Rules (the capitalization denotes an officially-codified portion of the CFR).

And yes, there is wide regional discretion in enforcement, or what constitutes "using" for "fishing". I'd be very surprised if a ranger at a lake in East Texas would question a CHL's possession of a "snake pistol" while fishing in a Corps lake. Other places... take your chances.

Kevin

As a visitor to CoE parks, and as a fed LEO, I did research this to make sure of my own status.

My opinion (and you know what those are like) is that if the state operates a park on land owned by CoE, it is a state park, not a CoE park, and state rules apply. I would let my guide be the presence or absence of CoE LEOs, and if in any doubt, I would try my best to not be a test case.

Kevin