http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW48GC2h_zQ
I've been reading up on this incident and have found many for and against this shooting.
Personally, after watching this video many many times, i cant say it was a good shooting.
From what i can see, this kid was going to throw a rock at the vehicle.
Two things:
1. The position of the feet, and the angle of the body in relation to the camera, agent, and vehicle all lead me to believe he was aiming at the vehicle.
2. No one stand right up against their target, you back away slightly and take aim if throwing a rock. This kid backed away from the vehicle approx 8 or 10 feet, if he were going to throw a rock at the agent, why wouldnt he just throw it from where he was? He didnt back away from the agent, he backed away from the vehicle.
Oh well, sad it had to come to this.
Good Shooting?
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
-
razoraggie
- Senior Member
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:35 pm
- Location: League City, Texas
Justified?.....That clip is only 41 seconds long. I wasn't there, but I know that a rock can kill. Perps have been shot over attacks with screwdrivers, sticks, crowbars and other everyday objects. The question to ask would be: was the individual intentionally trying to cause bodily harm? We can't even see if there is an agent in the vehicle he was attempting to strike with the rock. Way too many questions without enough video to make a good argument. You know that more of that video is probably out there, but only this part was leaked in order to make a statement. I can state with a fact that this shows the blatant disregard these nationals have for our borders and our agents.
-
G.C.Montgomery
- Senior Member
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:14 pm
- Location: Somewhere between 200ft and 900ft (AGL)
- Contact:
That video is a bit to short and lacking in detail to make a clear call. I will also offer an opinion based on personal experience. About two years ago, I faced a similar situation late at night (1:00AM) in downtown Houston.
I was about to enter my truck when a tall (6'4"+), male subject approached me from behind on the street. He appeared to be homeless and my first thought was that he was begging for money. His speech as unintelligible but based on my assumption I said in a clear voice, “I can’t help you, Sir!� Yet, he continued to close the distance between us to about the distance seen in the video. Similar to the video, it appeared my subject had a rock or other large object in his left hand.
After the first verbal warnings that I could not help him and to stay away, I escalated slightly to shinning a bright SureFire light in his face to distract him with a clear command to “Get Back!� hoping to get away and head back to the building I’d just exited. The problem was that I suddenly realized I now had two additional subject approaching at an oblique angle to the left and rear of me. And to make things really interesting, a guy who had been lying beneath a sheet on a park bench suddenly stood up to my right. All of these subjects were within 30 feet of me when the first subject raised his left hand with the rock as if to lunge at and strike me with that rock.
I had no OC (my mistake) and felt my only available ‘out’ was to point a gun at the first subject, with another command to get back with the intent of shooting him if he continued threatening me. And here’s my only experience with the stress of getting into a shooting…I can’t remember hearing a darn thing after the moment I made the decision to draw and potentially fire. My hearing returned about the time I started my truck to depart the scene as quickly as possible. The incident really left me mentally keyed up for several days.
I reported the incident to HPD but their attitude at the time was “…If you didn’t shoot anybody, why are you calling us?� For CYA purposes, I checked with building security only to find the incident had been recorded on not one, not two, but three cameras! A fourth camera on another building also recorded the incident but from a full city block away so there is not as much detail available. Without going into too much detail, we are only seeing one angle of this incident and it’s not the full story.
What I see in this case is a suspect apparently moving quickly toward an officer who already had a shotgun pointed at the suspect followed by the suspect moving in a manner that suggests he was about to throw an object with all the force he could muster. While the suspect does get turned around quite a bit and his feet even point at the vehicle for a time, it seems reasonable to believe the suspect was about to attempt to strike the officer since the officer was the closest potential target. Further, the positioning of the suspect’s feet is fluid through out the video but at the start we do see him moving deliberately toward the officer. The only time the suspect’s feet are pointed at the vehicle is the instant before he is shot. I think it’s a stretch draw the conclusion he was about to throw an object at the vehicle rather than the officer who was right in front of him. Even if that were the case, we don’t know that there wasn’t an officer in the vehicle who would have been injured by the object being thrown. There isn’t enough information available in the video to suggest it was a bad shooting. Strangely enough, I think there is enough info to at least suggest it was probably a justified shooting.
Some will dispute this obviously. That’s the reason the video got leaked. But seriously…I think those arguing “it’s just a rock� or “you could dodge a rock� are full of it. Just about everyone has played dodge ball at some point in their life. Think back to those days in the school yards and I think you’ll quickly remember that if you are as close as this suspect was to the officer, you’d get hit. And if you take a big rock to the head, there’s a good chance your lights are going out and there is a possibility of those lights going out permanently. If the officer believed he was about to get hit, I think he could reasonably say he had an imminent threat of serious injury and/or death and acted accordingly. That to me sounds like a justified shooting.
I was about to enter my truck when a tall (6'4"+), male subject approached me from behind on the street. He appeared to be homeless and my first thought was that he was begging for money. His speech as unintelligible but based on my assumption I said in a clear voice, “I can’t help you, Sir!� Yet, he continued to close the distance between us to about the distance seen in the video. Similar to the video, it appeared my subject had a rock or other large object in his left hand.
After the first verbal warnings that I could not help him and to stay away, I escalated slightly to shinning a bright SureFire light in his face to distract him with a clear command to “Get Back!� hoping to get away and head back to the building I’d just exited. The problem was that I suddenly realized I now had two additional subject approaching at an oblique angle to the left and rear of me. And to make things really interesting, a guy who had been lying beneath a sheet on a park bench suddenly stood up to my right. All of these subjects were within 30 feet of me when the first subject raised his left hand with the rock as if to lunge at and strike me with that rock.
I had no OC (my mistake) and felt my only available ‘out’ was to point a gun at the first subject, with another command to get back with the intent of shooting him if he continued threatening me. And here’s my only experience with the stress of getting into a shooting…I can’t remember hearing a darn thing after the moment I made the decision to draw and potentially fire. My hearing returned about the time I started my truck to depart the scene as quickly as possible. The incident really left me mentally keyed up for several days.
I reported the incident to HPD but their attitude at the time was “…If you didn’t shoot anybody, why are you calling us?� For CYA purposes, I checked with building security only to find the incident had been recorded on not one, not two, but three cameras! A fourth camera on another building also recorded the incident but from a full city block away so there is not as much detail available. Without going into too much detail, we are only seeing one angle of this incident and it’s not the full story.
What I see in this case is a suspect apparently moving quickly toward an officer who already had a shotgun pointed at the suspect followed by the suspect moving in a manner that suggests he was about to throw an object with all the force he could muster. While the suspect does get turned around quite a bit and his feet even point at the vehicle for a time, it seems reasonable to believe the suspect was about to attempt to strike the officer since the officer was the closest potential target. Further, the positioning of the suspect’s feet is fluid through out the video but at the start we do see him moving deliberately toward the officer. The only time the suspect’s feet are pointed at the vehicle is the instant before he is shot. I think it’s a stretch draw the conclusion he was about to throw an object at the vehicle rather than the officer who was right in front of him. Even if that were the case, we don’t know that there wasn’t an officer in the vehicle who would have been injured by the object being thrown. There isn’t enough information available in the video to suggest it was a bad shooting. Strangely enough, I think there is enough info to at least suggest it was probably a justified shooting.
Some will dispute this obviously. That’s the reason the video got leaked. But seriously…I think those arguing “it’s just a rock� or “you could dodge a rock� are full of it. Just about everyone has played dodge ball at some point in their life. Think back to those days in the school yards and I think you’ll quickly remember that if you are as close as this suspect was to the officer, you’d get hit. And if you take a big rock to the head, there’s a good chance your lights are going out and there is a possibility of those lights going out permanently. If the officer believed he was about to get hit, I think he could reasonably say he had an imminent threat of serious injury and/or death and acted accordingly. That to me sounds like a justified shooting.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.
G. C. Montgomery, Jr.
G. C. Montgomery, Jr.
-
Charles L. Cotton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 17788
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
- Location: Friendswood, TX
- Contact:
This same thing was discussed on THR about a week back. It quickly degenerated into a "we should just shoot anyone crossing the border" festival. It was very disappointing to see that kind of banter going on, especially on that forum. I think that's one reason why I stopped frequenting THR much lately.
I've not seen the video so I can't comment. I couldn't bring myself to join in a discussion where people were embracing the taking of a life with such abandon. Maybe I'll take a look at it when the negative association has worn off a little.
I've not seen the video so I can't comment. I couldn't bring myself to join in a discussion where people were embracing the taking of a life with such abandon. Maybe I'll take a look at it when the negative association has worn off a little.
The video is a bit longer, but the only portion that shows the shooting is what you are looking at.razoraggie wrote:Justified?.....That clip is only 41 seconds long. I wasn't there, but I know that a rock can kill. Perps have been shot over attacks with screwdrivers, sticks, crowbars and other everyday objects. The question to ask would be: was the individual intentionally trying to cause bodily harm? We can't even see if there is an agent in the vehicle he was attempting to strike with the rock. Way too many questions without enough video to make a good argument. You know that more of that video is probably out there, but only this part was leaked in order to make a statement. I can state with a fact that this shows the blatant disregard these nationals have for our borders and our agents.
Personally id defend myself with a gun if someone was also armed with a rock, but i will admit that i wont do it right away. Heck, ive seen cops not shoot someone weilding another gun!
Anyway, my stance has nothing to do with it being a rock, screwdriver, or electric eal. I am by no means influenced by it being a latin male, illegal, black, white, or woman.
I see the video as showing some guy about to throw a rock at a truck, then get shot, thats all.
A coroner's report should help as it would probably show the trajectory.
People have been killed in cold blood by law enforcement and border patrols before. Of course you got to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, it cant be an easy job and im sure its stressful as hell sometimes.
If he in fact was trigger happy, then i hope he pays.
Anyway, my stance has nothing to do with it being a rock, screwdriver, or electric eal. I am by no means influenced by it being a latin male, illegal, black, white, or woman.
I see the video as showing some guy about to throw a rock at a truck, then get shot, thats all.
A coroner's report should help as it would probably show the trajectory.
People have been killed in cold blood by law enforcement and border patrols before. Of course you got to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, it cant be an easy job and im sure its stressful as hell sometimes.
If he in fact was trigger happy, then i hope he pays.
Something I was wondering about the other day: what if before you could react someone shoots you with a bb gun. I obviously does not kill you but the perp shoots again and appears to be intent on continuing his bb assualt. Say you could not escape to cover. I think that a properly placed BB could maim or kill.
Would this situation be cause for deadly force? Not a situation I would want to be in. I guess its like attacking dog. they may not understand reason and are acting instinctively.
Would this situation be cause for deadly force? Not a situation I would want to be in. I guess its like attacking dog. they may not understand reason and are acting instinctively.
-
pbandjelly