Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

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RogueUSMC
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Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by RogueUSMC »

The Scenario:
Joe Badguy initiates an armed confrontation in the parking lot of your favorite resturaunt as you are leaving.

You make it to about the halfway point between the door and your car when you spot him casing you. You ask him from a distance if you can do anything for him to which he responds by starting to approach you telling you he would like a donation to his non-prescription pharmaceutical fund (not in so many words of course).

You tell him that a donation is not in the budget for you at this time, to which he responds by moving his hand to what may very well be a gun.

You have kept cars between the two of you up until this point. You move your hand to your gun while taking cover behind a car. He fires at you hitting the car that is between the two of you. He realises you are armed when you send a quick double tap his direction as you make cover.

Joe, then, carries himself to cover but continues to verbalise his intent to perforate you in order to take above mentioned donation from you by force.

Your cover is a four wheeled conveyance and his is two wheeled conveyeance.
The subject was brought up in another thread about having a portion of your carry ammo being FMJs for hard cover penetration. I brought this to a new thread because this debate would become a tangent in that thread. I think it is a valid discussion and am curious to hear other folk's input.

My thinking is as follows:

Militarily:
My military training would lead me to press the engagement. In the military, we would be loaded with primarily, if not exclusively FMJs. My 230gr 45ACP FMJs would probably be sufficient to penetrate the Harley Davidson Ultra Classic but the 230gr Speer Gold Dots may not be. But let's debate the tactical perspective on persuing the engagement.

In combat, it is usually advantageous to persue once your enemy has been routed. But sometimes you don't because making pursuit may very well open yourself up for an envelopement. Tactics are usually drawn with some regard for a strategic perspective. War is not about killing the enemy, it's about eliminating your enemy's ability to wage war.

Tactics and strategies are ALWAYS drawn in regards to what the enemy CAN do, not what you think he WILL do. And, as a general rule, a defensible position has a 3 to 1 advantage against an assault. So sitting tight and defending is preferable when there is a 1 to 1 force ratio.

As a Armed Citizen:
We have no strategic considerations, so tactics are drawn up in regards to your one facet of defense. The 3 to 1 advantage applies to you as one gun in a given situation. In a 1 on 1 engagement, the defender has the advantage.

Joe Badguy is still verbalizing intent to do you harm, so the threat is not entirely eliminated.

I am not necessarily looking to debate the legality of making a shot through hard cover in the attempt to hit Joe, but it might be beneficial to hash that out. But does it tactically make sense?

I am thinking the best course of action would be to hunker down in a defensible position, call 911 but what say y'all?
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WildBill
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by WildBill »

RogueUSMC wrote:I am thinking the best course of action would be to hunker down in a defensible position, call 911 but what say y'all?
:iagree: Be prepared, but you can't be prepared for every circumstance.

I have read posts about people loading magazines alternating FMJ with hollow-points, but I think that's going a bit too far.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by A-R »

As to alternating FMJ & JHP ... how do you prevent one of your FMJs bring fired at a non-barricaded target, going through that target, and hitting an innocent third party?

I could maybe see having a spare mag if FMJs, but even that gets into cumbersome tactical fumbling that most who are not highly trained wont be able to juggle under real life-or-death stress.

Also - in general regarding firing through barricades - what is your justification after the fact? How do you articulate? How do you KNOW that your round will hit bad guy - and ONLY bad guy - once it penetrates the barrier? Can you see the bad guy partially? Or not at all (just knowing/assuming he is in that spot behind the barrier)?
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by Dad24GreatKids »

WildBill wrote:
RogueUSMC wrote:I am thinking the best course of action would be to hunker down in a defensible position, call 911 but what say y'all?
:iagree: Be prepared, but you can't be prepared for every circumstance.

I have read posts about people loading magazines alternating FMJ with hollow-points, but I think that's going a bit too far.
I've done this with mu Ruger LCP due to the .380 caliber. I have recently resolved this by deciding to sell the LCP and carrying a XDs 9mm or Glock 23C. Regarding the OP's question, I would not be shooting to penetrate hard cover. I might be laying down fire in order to retreat or to force the attacker to retreat, so hollow points should be effective for that.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by RogueUSMC »

But our general rule is "no finger on a trigger until you have an intended target"...'laying down fire' wouldn't be firing on an intended target.

I would lean towards it being unnecessary to have to penetrate hard cover. I would probably consider that being in the offensive, and we are only supposed to be defensive but I was gathering opinions. I agree that the situation would dictate as Wild Bill said. Defending your home would be different from the above scenario.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Dad24GreatKids wrote:
WildBill wrote:
RogueUSMC wrote:I am thinking the best course of action would be to hunker down in a defensible position, call 911 but what say y'all?
:iagree: Be prepared, but you can't be prepared for every circumstance.

I have read posts about people loading magazines alternating FMJ with hollow-points, but I think that's going a bit too far.
I've done this with mu Ruger LCP due to the .380 caliber. I have recently resolved this by deciding to sell the LCP and carrying a XDs 9mm or Glock 23C. Regarding the OP's question, I would not be shooting to penetrate hard cover. I might be laying down fire in order to retreat or to force the attacker to retreat, so hollow points should be effective for that.
There's hard cover, and then there's HARD cover. Shooting at someone behind a sheet metal or glass is feasible. Shooting at someone who is behind an engine block or steel wheels is a waste of time. The bullets won't penetrate that kind of barrier.....not even FMJ. Autobody sheet metal can be penetrated, but then some hollowpoint bullets also will penetrate sheet metal and glass quite well and still perform well. Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots for instance....

....but tactically, it makes no sense at all to stick around for that kind of gunfight. If you can get away, you should. If you've got a bad guy pinned down, you have an opportunity to get away. You should take it.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by Jumping Frog »

First, note for the record that any defensive shooting event is already a low probability. However,, since I carry every day, I have already demonstrated my willingness to prepare for low probability events.

However, when I gauge probabilities, I personally think the chance of shooting an FMJ so that it penetrates and wounds a bystander is higher than the probability that I will need to shoot an FMJ through cover to save my life. Thus, I'll stick with well-designed hollow points for the best change to stop the threat.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by MoJo »

"Hard cover" is a gamer's term. There is "COVER" and there is "CONCEALMENT" there is a difference. Cover will protect you from incoming fire concealment will keep you from being seen. So, depending on what is being used as cover and what is being shot that automobile may be cover it's definitely concealment. The Box O Truth did the Buick O Truth a few years ago. I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions.

I am carrying LEO grade CorBon DPX or, Federal HST ammo in all my semi auto handguns. I chose those two rounds after doing some extensive research on what works best in all situations and both of these rounds have superior barrier penetration characteristics without becoming a "Hardball" bullet. There are other good barrier penetration rounds on the market most are sold as the LE version of civilian ammo.

Back to the OP I won't carry FMJ ammo as long as I have hollow points available. If I'm going some place where I think cover is going to be a problem there will be a rifle going along too. :tiphat:
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by srothstein »

I don't see the need for FMJ for most CHLs. For the most part, any good defensive round will penetrate where it is needed for a good defensive shoot. I agree that if the BG gets to cover, it is time for the CHL to get away from the area instead of keep trying to get the BG. Your job as a CHL is to stay alive and protect your family and property, in that order. It is not to arrest or punish the BG. If he gets away but you and your family are unhurt, that is all that counts.

Second, I would point out that shooting at people in a car is generally a bad idea. I have tried to teach police not to do this for years. If the car is coming at you and you shoot, you do not stop the car, even if you stop the driver. Kill the driver and the car becomes an unguided missile that will hit someone or something. You do not want to be responsible for this, as a CHL, even if the shooting was justified. I would not want to be responsible for this as a police officer, let alone as a citizen. If you are in front of the car (as in most police shootings of this type), there is a good chance you will be the one hit.

Third, I would point out that there was a very interesting old psychology study about what constitutes cover and concealment and how they affect shooters. to reiterate, cover is something that will stop a bullet, concealment is something that keeps you from being seen. But the study showed that the average person will not shoot through concealment, even if they later realize that it would not stop a bullet. As part of the experiment, the "victim" was given a large sheet of paper to hold in front of him. Almost every participant tried their best to get around the various edges of the paper as the "victim" moved it to block the barrel. Virtually no one tried to shoot right through the paper. What this means is that you are very unlikely to try to shoot at someone under cover or concealment, so do we really need to carry FMJ to prepare for it?
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by JSThane »

Given the described scenario... parking lot, ducking behind a car... that's not cover, that's concealment.

Bullets, even hollowpoint or otherwise expanding, will go through a LOT of stuff. Even the best of us fall into the "Hollyweird trap" of thinking a car or some other barrier impermeable to us is also impermeable to a supersonic chunk of copper-jacketed lead. The best cure for this, IMO, is to obtain a junked car (and a tolerant range or landowner), and spend a little while seeing what will, and what won't, penetrate. Get hold of some cinderblock and bricks, too. If it's available, try some furniture, or a chunk of unsplit firewood (to simulate a tree). Use your imagination. Go nuts (assuming the landowner is tolerant enough, and you can do so safely), and try a whole bunch of stuff, pistol, shotgun, rifle.

It may amaze you to discover what doesn't actually count as cover, but only concealment, and what even expanding ammunition will penetrate.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by EEllis »

For CHL? No, nuff said.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by jmra »

Most thugs are cowards. They look for easy targets. Once they see a gun most are going to run away crying for momma. Unless there are multiple armed assailants, I don't see them taking cover and continuing an attack. If there are multiple assailants, then you are conserving ammo and firing only in an effort to keep them behind cover (instead of advancing) while you put as much distance between them and you as possible.
I say conserving ammo because you will need as much ammo as possible if they were to advance on your position.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by RogueUSMC »

I'm playing devil's advocate here...lol

You are correct on what most thugs do but...betting on what you think they WILL do rather than what they CAN do is not tactically sound reasoning.

As for what bullets are capable of, you don't place bets on what it MIGHT do. My range set up is targets fastened to the broad side of a stack of freight pallets with a couple of round bales as a backstop. My Winchester White Box 230gr FMJs will punch through all three 2x4 runners on the pallets and end up in the round bale....and that's from a 3.3in barrel. My Gold Dots, not so much. I have tested old car doors to see what my ammo will do...but, shooting through TWO car doors, the trajectories change drastically even with FMJs.

I am not of the opinion that FMJs belong in your carry magazines. I was just getting discussion started. My opinions have changes more than once by valid arguments made by someone else that hadn't occurred to me.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by jmra »

RogueUSMC wrote:I'm playing devil's advocate here...lol

You are correct on what most thugs do but...betting on what you think they WILL do rather than what they CAN do is not tactically sound reasoning.
:iagree: Preparing for the worst usually results in the best outcome.
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Re: Penetrating hard cover...is it necessary?

Post by TexasCajun »

The main issue with the original premise of this thread is akin to trying to apply theoretical calculus to a problem where there's only time & space to use simple addition & subtraction. In trying to anticipate a bad situation and prepare as best you can, adding different ammo into the equation adds another variable to an already large set of unknown variables. My vote is to keep it all as simple as possible.
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