45ACP muzzle flash

[markthenewf]

I did a pistol night fighting course a little while ago and came to find that my 230gr golden saber rounds give off quite the fireball. Not good. Everyone shot different types/sizes/calibers, but without a doubt the Hornady Critical Defense rounds produced a very small 'pinky through a donut' muzzle flash. It was easily 10% of what my remingtons were. So off I went to pick some up, but they only exist as 185gr and the critical duty only exists as 220gr +P. I figure what the heck.... let's give them a whirl. Bottom line is that they do not shoot as well as the 230gr rounds. The only other option I see is the remington "ultimate defense" 230gr rounds which look strangely like golden sabers. They do claim on the package that the powder is coated with a flash suppressing formula. Sounds like marketing baloney to me.

So my question is has anyone else been able to do a muzzle-flash check on any 230gr defensive rounds? In this age of numerical ratings on everything, you'd think someone would've come up with some format of gauging muzzle flash somehow.

[The Annoyed Man]

I did a pistol night fighting course a little while ago and came to find that my 230gr golden saber rounds give off quite the fireball. Not good. Everyone shot different types/sizes/calibers, but without a doubt the Hornady Critical Defense rounds produced a very small 'pinky through a donut' muzzle flash. It was easily 10% of what my remingtons were. So off I went to pick some up, but they only exist as 185gr and the critical duty only exists as 220gr +P. I figure what the heck.... let's give them a whirl. Bottom line is that they do not shoot as well as the 230gr rounds. The only other option I see is the remington "ultimate defense" 230gr rounds which look strangely like golden sabers. They do claim on the package that the powder is coated with a flash suppressing formula. Sounds like marketing baloney to me.

So my question is has anyone else been able to do a muzzle-flash check on any 230gr defensive rounds? In this age of numerical ratings on everything, you'd think someone would've come up with some format of gauging muzzle flash somehow.

Actually, that's not baloney. Some powders do have additive which reduce muzzle flash. I don't know what kind of gun you're using, but I can tell you that I carry the 185 grain Critical Defense load in my XDS, because it develops 900 fps and 333 ft lb out of a 3" barrel. In a 5" barrel, it develops 1,000 fps and 411 ft lb. That puts it officially into the slobber-knocker category. In a 5" barrel, it ought to develop less flash than a 3" barrel. Anyway, just how hard do you need to shoot someone? A 185 grain bullet going 1,000 fps is plenty stout. Of course, it means nothing if it doesn't shoot well in your pistol, but I wouldn't discount it just because it is 185 grains, and not 230 grains.

BTW, Hornady claims a low flash powder for the Critical Defense ammo too, and yet by your own experience, it isn't just marketing hype: http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-185 ... l-Defense/

[MechAg94]

Try shooting cheap FMJ practice ammo instead and then compare that muzzle flash to the golden saber.

Speer Gold Dot has had a fairly low flash in my experience, but that is compared to FMJ. I don't remember what caliber I shot.

[jimlongley]

A few years ago a couple of us tried to measure muzzle flash on several different rounds that we had available. The problem we ran into was that my camera just would not capture the flash well enough. It should be a lot easier with today's technology.

Our little experiment was brought on by one of the guys' flash on his reloads during a low light shoot. Hardly anything visible in bright sunshine, but after dark, WOW!

As a gunner in the Navy I used "flash suppressed" ammo in my five inch guns, and it worked, a lot less flash, but in the daytime a lot more smoke.

[Jumping Frog]

Boy, I remember reading a review of night-time muzzle flash in one of the gun rags about 3-4 years ago. However, for the life of me, I cannot remember where or when I read it.

What I do recall if they had good photographs comparing various self defense loads. It was one of the factors that led me to carrying the Winchester Ranger T-series.

[markthenewf]

We (about 10 of us) all shot FMJ practice ammo for the course (perhaps 300 in actual night conditions) and they all gave off a significant flash. We were then given the opportunity to run whatever we wanted to see what the flash was like at the end of the course. FYI, an AR pistol with a brake makes a torso-sized fireball! Fun. I was the only one running Rem GS rounds, but I was told you could sometimes see the slug flying along with the flash 'strobe' effect (we shot at about 20 yards) when your eyes were adjusted to the dard.

The Hornady round did indeed have the lowest flash of everything there (in 9mm and 45 at least), so I don't doubt that the coating or mix they use is flash suppressed. What I meant to say is that the 'ultimate defense' looks a heck of a lot like 'golden saber' with the exception of the flash suppressant claim. The GS round shoots great in everything, so if the UD round is the same thing with a flash suppressed powder, I'm....errrr... golden. . I just can't find anything proving that it is.

I'm just not a huge fan of the 180s in 45ACP. Definitely not a +P 45ACP guy. Neither shoots well in either my commander sized 1911 or my Karh CW45. Seems a bit snappier than the 230's as well, so it feels like I'm getting more muzzle flip. I'd prefer to just go with 230gr not plus P. Even if I could do a muzzle flash test, I cannot find any Ranger-T anywhere, so that's not really an option.

As a side note to all this, if you haven't taken a course that shows you how to shoot at night, I highly recommend it. You'd be surprised at the results. I found out how low a benefit night sights are to me and how my wife can practically point-shoot her snubby with a CT laser grip.

[LAYGO]

As a side note to all this, if you haven't taken a course that shows you how to shoot at night, I highly recommend it. You'd be surprised at the results. I found out how low a benefit night sights are to me and how my wife can practically point-shoot her snubby with a CT laser grip.

Care to elaborate? I'm considering night sights soon (for awhile actually) on my Shield 9/Compact 45. Is it a limitation of your own vision? Or something else?

[MoJo]

One word Federal. They have some of the lowest flash powders of any. Muzzle flash is mainly a range problem in a shooting situation you won't notice it. Remington has the biggest muzzle flash of all premium ammo and Federal and Speer have some of the lowest. FYI the Russian ammo (Wolf, Tula, etc.) are all low flash. Go figure.

Night sights are something I have given up on, Fiber optic sights will pick up enough light to give you an idea of where the gun is pointed. Most folks take too much time trying to line up the dots. If you MUST have illuminated sights just the front sight is all that's necessary.

[markthenewf]

As a side note to all this, if you haven't taken a course that shows you how to shoot at night, I highly recommend it. You'd be surprised at the results. I found out how low a benefit night sights are to me and how my wife can practically point-shoot her snubby with a CT laser grip.

Care to elaborate? I'm considering night sights soon (for awhile actually) on my Shield 9/Compact 45. Is it a limitation of your own vision? Or something else?

It varies from person to person. You just have to try it and see if you can focus on the sight AND make out the target in low light. For me it's one or the other until I shine a light. What I end up doing is flashing the light, usually a high lumen tac style light with a moderately narrow beam. This lights up my sights and target at which point I can turn off the light and shoot at the residual image, then move again. At the same time, the light is in the threat's face, causing them to loose their night vision and they shouldn't be able to detect your movement. You just have to try it. Interesting stuff that you don't realize how difficult it is until you try it. I can forward you the contact info for the guys I took the course from if you'd like, though I'm not sure when their next course is.

[markthenewf]

One word Federal. They have some of the lowest flash powders of any. Muzzle flash is mainly a range problem in a shooting situation you won't notice it. Remington has the biggest muzzle flash of all premium ammo and Federal and Speer have some of the lowest. FYI the Russian ammo (Wolf, Tula, etc.) are all low flash. Go figure.

Yeah, I need to see into that. I've got some older hyrda-shoks, but I'm not sure those are reduced flash. IIRC, I can see the concussion/flash in the day light. I'll have to revisit that. It's a shame as I really do like the golden sabers. I need to just find out if the ulitimate defense rounds truly are golden saber Version 2, with better anti-flash powder.

Night sights are something I have given up on, Fiber optic sights will pick up enough light to give you an idea of where the gun is pointed. Most folks take too much time trying to line up the dots. If you MUST have illuminated sights just the front sight is all that's necessary.

I tend to agree. The Mepro ones on my Kimber are nice, but they're starting to fade a smidgen. I do have a XS big dot on my snubbie and that sucker is bright. Either way, I think I'll do the fiber optic versions from here on in.

[jimlongley]

Muzzle flash from .45ACP reloads.

[Big Bronze Rim]

One word Federal. They have some of the lowest flash powders of any. Muzzle flash is mainly a range problem in a shooting situation you won't notice it. Remington has the biggest muzzle flash of all premium ammo and Federal and Speer have some of the lowest. FYI the Russian ammo (Wolf, Tula, etc.) are all low flash. Go figure.

Yeah, I need to see into that. I've got some older hyrda-shoks, but I'm not sure those are reduced flash. IIRC, I can see the concussion/flash in the day light. I'll have to revisit that. It's a shame as I really do like the golden sabers. I need to just find out if the ulitimate defense rounds truly are golden saber Version 2, with better anti-flash powder.

Night sights are something I have given up on, Fiber optic sights will pick up enough light to give you an idea of where the gun is pointed. Most folks take too much time trying to line up the dots. If you MUST have illuminated sights just the front sight is all that's necessary.

I tend to agree. The Mepro ones on my Kimber are nice, but they're starting to fade a smidgen. I do have a XS big dot on my snubbie and that sucker is bright. Either way, I think I'll do the fiber optic versions from here on in.

I agree that after taking a low light pistol fighting class, you will question the usefulness of night sights. I won't be changing out the the night sights I have but don't feel they are an absolute necessity I once thought they were. They are good for finding your pistol on the nightstand though.

[markthenewf]

So the question still stands: what are the best 230gr rounds that are low flash? Like I originally said, the hornady CD rounds are great, but only come in 180-somethings. I want to use the original 230gr NON +P. This is what the 45ACP was designed around and what I want to use.

[Jumping Frog]

So the question still stands: what are the best 230gr rounds that are low flash? Like I originally said, the hornady CD rounds are great, but only come in 180-somethings. I want to use the original 230gr NON +P. This is what the 45ACP was designed around and what I want to use.

You have already had two people respond regarding the Winchester Ranger T-series