Open Carry in Church

[Dad24GreatKids]

All -

There have been many forum threads on concealed carry in churches. Clearly it is legal for a licensed CHL holder to carry in a church as long as they have not been given notice per 30.06. I won't say that our church welcomes this, but they at least tolerate it.

What isn't clear to me is open carry in a church. I don't see any restrictions in TPC 46 that would prevent someone from walking into a church or place of worship with a long gun. Have I missed something in the statutes? Would a simple gun buster sign be considered effective notice prohibiting open carry?

Thanks for your help.

[mr1337]

It's my opinion that gun buster signs (but not 30.06 signs) do create a trespass notice for those open carrying long guns.

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun.

So here it's saying that you only have an exception if you're carrying concealed with a license, because that is addressed in the next section, 30.06 and is subject to that section only.


Now let's look at Texas Penal Code section 46.03.

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

... You'll notice that shotgun and rifle are not mentioned in this section, meaning it is not unlawful to carry one there as long as you haven't received notice that you entry with it was prohibited.

The only place that Church is mentioned is in Sec. 46.035 UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. - where carrying a concealed handgun is only prohibited if you've received notice pursuant to Sec. 30.06 with a compliant sign, card, or verbal warning.

So to answer your question, I do not believe it's unlawful to openly carry a long gun into a church. Now, why you'd want to is beyond me. But it does appear that you have the freedom to do so.

Now I do believe that GUN BUSTER signs (but not 30.06 signs) do create a trespass warning for those carrying long guns into such places, since long guns are not covered under 30.06. Entering a place that has a gun buster sign, openly carrying a long gun will open you up to the liability of a criminal trespass charge. However, if it's simply a 30.06 sign, that is not effective notice that openly carrying a long gun is prohibited (only concealed handguns are prohibited) and thus would not be effective notice. Although I would still say it's not a very good idea to openly carry a rifle/shotgun into a place that has a 30.06 sign.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

[carlson1]

I have a lot of CHL church members. It may be legal, but if someone walked in with an AR 15 he would not be greeted well or welcome. I would escort him out and call the police.

[mojo84]

Whether it's legal or not, it's goes against societal norms and common sense. If someone walked into our church with a long gun, I know for a fact he will be escorted out at the business end of my gun or on a stretcher depending on his response.

With the attitude of many toward Christians, that is an area I would have zero tolerance. I promise there is no false macho bravado in my comment.

[jmra]

Whether it's legal or not, it's goes against societal norms and common sense. If someone walked into our church with a long gun, I know for a fact he will be escorted out at the business end of my gun or on a stretcher depending on his response.

With the attitude of many toward Christians, that is an area I would have zero tolerance. I promise there is no false macho bravado in my comment.

[anygunanywhere]

What we absolutely do not need is someone pulling an OC stunt by OCing a long gun into a church. This would surely squash any chance there is of OC being passed in the next legislative agenda. The really sad part is that I am certain there is some lamebrain idiot out there who thinks this is a good idea.

Even with all of the discussions about where and when we would OC once passed I would never consider OCing to church.

[Dad24GreatKids]

Thanks for the replies. This is something I would never do or condone. I want to be clear on the law. The world is changing and I wouldn't put it past fringe groups to do something like this. I want our church staff and safety team to understand the law and be able to make informed decisions.

[Dad24GreatKids]

What we absolutely do not need is someone pulling an OC stunt by OCing a long gun into a church. This would surely squash any chance there is of OC being passed in the next legislative agenda. The really sad part is that I am certain there is some lamebrain idiot out there who thinks this is a good idea.

Even with all of the discussions about where and when we would OC once passed I would never consider OCing to church.

[Texas_Blaze]

Very interesting situation. I can honestly say I would consider such a person an immediate threat and would draw down on the person. I didnt even consider the possibility that such a person is simply OCing. Not to hijack, but holding a person at gun point in a situation like this, at church, is that legal? Should the person simply be told to leave? How is this different than WalMart?

[RetNavy]

I have been thinking about the same situation recently, especially since the PD arrested a couple of people for breaking into cars in church parking lots... We dont have a large congregation... about 50-60 plus kids.... as far as I know I am the the only one carrying... two other members work for the TDJC one i dont if he has a CHL since he just started a few months ago... the other been with them for years but I dont think he carries in the church... not even one of the elders who is my F-I-L knows I carry in church...

If some one walks in my SA would definitely gointo overdrive.... It might depend on what time they enter... if bfore the service starts would inform that OC is frrowned upon.... if during service but before communion would wait until a good time to inform but keep a wary eye out.... if after communion and after the collection thats when the spidey senses will probably go into overdrive.....

in short... inform and ask to leave weapon outside and enjoy the service

[The Annoyed Man]

The law aside, OC'ing a long gun into church is just about the dumbest thing I can think of. There was a time in our history when people carried a rifle or shotgun to church, but they left them leaning against the walls in the back corner. The gun was for protecting them in transit between church and home, not for making some kind of statement in church........ and I carry in church, including on stage, so I'm not against guns in church. But carrying a long gun into a Target or Starbucks is a dumb idea. Carrying one into churches, where there HAVE been mass killings in the past, is a singularly stupid idea with a high probability of getting the long-gun's bearer shot.

[Dad24GreatKids]

Very interesting situation. I can honestly say I would consider such a person an immediate threat and would draw down on the person. I didnt even consider the possibility that such a person is simply OCing. Not to hijack, but holding a person at gun point in a situation like this, at church, is that legal? Should the person simply be told to leave? How is this different than WalMart?

I think my response would depend in part on how they were carrying. If they have their weapon on a sling across their back I would be less likely to draw. Weapon in front at low ready would dictate something else.

Again I am just trying to understand the lawfulness of this scenario and to help our staff and safety team be prepared.

[Dad24GreatKids]

The law aside, OC'ing a long gun into church is just about the dumbest thing I can think of. There was a time in our history when people carried a rifle or shotgun to church, but they left them leaning against the walls in the back corner. The gun was for protecting them in transit between church and home, not for making some kind of statement in church........ and I carry in church, including on stage, so I'm not against guns in church. But carrying a long gun into a Target or Starbucks is a dumb idea. Carrying one into churches, where there HAVE been mass killings in the past, is a singularly stupid idea with a high probability of getting the long-gun's bearer shot.

TAM - I agree that this ranks high on a list of stupid ideas. Unfortunately our country is turning away from its foundations. The church isn't off limits anymore. More and more frequently groups are using it as a platform for protests. Again, this is about being prepared.

[Seabear]

What we absolutely do not need is someone pulling an OC stunt by OCing a long gun into a church. This would surely squash any chance there is of OC being passed in the next legislative agenda. The really sad part is that I am certain there is some lamebrain idiot out there who thinks this is a good idea.

Even with all of the discussions about where and when we would OC once passed I would never consider OCing to church.

I also agree with a previous post, if someone walked into our church with a long gun of any kind, they more than likely would be escorted out by the muzzle of my M&P.

[G.A. Heath]

I am more or less in the middle here, and in my opinion it all depends on the church/congregation. A small church that is gun friendly and everyone knows everyone else: it would probably be ok, after getting the pastor's OK. A larger church where you are seated next to a stranger across the aisle every Sunday: it would probably be a bad idea. Everything else falls somewhere in between with the default being don't do it.

Now lets deal with the drawing down or escorting out by the muzzle of a pistol: bad idea. Does someone OCing a firearm justify the legal threat/use of deadly force? I do not think so. In fact I doubt it justifies the legal threat/use of force at all until other conditions are met. Does it warrant ratcheting up your situational awareness and preparation level? VERY MUCH SO.