Fatal MPD Shooting

[VMI77]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2t_JMjtYUQ#t=429[/video]

Shooting sequence of events starts around 6:30. Good shoot, or bad shoot? What do the informed think?

[Vol Texan]

I'm watching this on my iPhone only. With only my small screen to use, this doesn't look too good for anyone involved.

With my limited view, it didn't look like a reasonable shoot. Hopefully, more info will come out to clear this up.

[Taypo]

I've watched it a few times now, I just don't see a single thing that would justify pulling a trigger. Obviously we weren't there but it don't look good from this side, that's for sure.

[mr surveyor]

12 shots and still "put your hands up"?

[Beiruty]

They said, the one who was shot, has already stabbed and killed another person in the store before LEOs arrived. The question, why he was back to the crime scene? Also, it was said the he was holding a knife when his hands were up.

[Taypo]

There's definitely something in his left hand and he MAY have taken a small step forward with his left foot before he was shot.

[EEllis]

If he had a weapon then it's good to shoot if they don't get compliance. I also am a bit unsure if lo-res video shows what really happens. I don't think you can see expressions, muscle tension, some of the subtle body language I just don't feel it's the same as being there. That is an issue with some of these use of force videos. It isn't Hollywood and you can't pretend that it gives you all the info.

[VMI77]

If you read the comments after the video on youtube many of them are calling it justified because they're assuming the guy that was shot is the guy that stabbed the football player to death inside the store --which if true may be in some way morally just, but certainly not the kind of legal system a reasonable person wants to live under. I don't understand people who think that it's ok for the police to kill someone merely because they believe he just killed someone else --though I'm not saying that's what happened here. The parents claim he returned to the scene to turn himself in....and before the shooting you can see him lingering at the corner of the store. I can't tell what's in his hand even with a full screen, but it is supposedly a knife.

It looks to me like one of the officers closes in a few paces which doesn't seem to make sense when someone is carrying a knife. A lot of commenters on youtube say he lunged, but it looks to me like he fell forward and dropped what was in his hand right after the first shot and pretty much remained in place until then. If he did move forward it looks like the officers closed the distance more than he did. It seems like you'd want to back off in case he rushed forward. It also seems like the attempt to obtain compliance was a little too fast since it doesn't look like the guy was advancing. Too bad another camera angle isn't available or the video isn't higher resolution.

[Keith B]

If you read the comments after the video on youtube many of them are calling it justified because they're assuming the guy that was shot is the guy that stabbed the football player to death inside the store --which if true may be in some way morally just, but certainly not the kind of legal system a reasonable person wants to live under. I don't understand people who think that it's ok for the police to kill someone merely because they believe he just killed someone else --though I'm not saying that's what happened here. The parents claim he returned to the scene to turn himself in....and before the shooting you can see him lingering at the corner of the store. I can't tell what's in his hand even with a full screen, but it is supposedly a knife.

It looks to me like one of the officers closes in a few paces which doesn't seem to make sense when someone is carrying a knife. A lot of commenters on youtube say he lunged, but it looks to me like he fell forward and dropped what was in his hand right after the first shot and pretty much remained in place until then. If he did move forward it looks like the officers closed the distance more than he did. It seems like you'd want to back off in case he rushed forward. It also seems like the attempt to obtain compliance was a little too fast since it doesn't look like the guy was advancing. Too bad another camera angle isn't available or the video isn't higher resolution.

They would not want to back off as it woudl leave the door to the store vulnerable to the BG gain access and potentially injure another or take a hostage. Also, if he had a knife, which they say he did, tehn he should have not been holding it or dropped it when engaged. There had to have been some motivation for the initial shot in the fact he started to move forward or transmitted a movement that indicated he was starting to advance.

Bottom line, trying to armchair quarterback this one is not gonna work as the resolution is too low and we can't see all of the perp or hear all of what transpired in audio.

[VMI77]

If you read the comments after the video on youtube many of them are calling it justified because they're assuming the guy that was shot is the guy that stabbed the football player to death inside the store --which if true may be in some way morally just, but certainly not the kind of legal system a reasonable person wants to live under. I don't understand people who think that it's ok for the police to kill someone merely because they believe he just killed someone else --though I'm not saying that's what happened here. The parents claim he returned to the scene to turn himself in....and before the shooting you can see him lingering at the corner of the store. I can't tell what's in his hand even with a full screen, but it is supposedly a knife.

It looks to me like one of the officers closes in a few paces which doesn't seem to make sense when someone is carrying a knife. A lot of commenters on youtube say he lunged, but it looks to me like he fell forward and dropped what was in his hand right after the first shot and pretty much remained in place until then. If he did move forward it looks like the officers closed the distance more than he did. It seems like you'd want to back off in case he rushed forward. It also seems like the attempt to obtain compliance was a little too fast since it doesn't look like the guy was advancing. Too bad another camera angle isn't available or the video isn't higher resolution.

They would not want to back off as it woudl leave the door to the store vulnerable to the BG gain access and potentially injure another or take a hostage. Also, if he had a knife, which they say he did, tehn he should have not been holding it or dropped it when engaged. There had to have been some motivation for the initial shot in the fact he started to move forward or transmitted a movement that indicated he was starting to advance.

Bottom line, trying to armchair quarterback this one is not gonna work as the resolution is too low and we can't see all of the perp or hear all of what transpired in audio.

Which is why cameras, while they may be helpful in some situations, aren't a panacea.....and can even lead to false conclusions. Honestly, I can't tell much at all from the video because the resolution is insufficient to see the most relevant elements.

[joe817]

Even after watching it 4 times, the resolution is so poor the only thing I could definitely make out was that the guy in the t-shirt had his hands up, above his head when the firing started. Makes me wonder.....hmmmm.

Bad situation all the way around.

[Keith B]

If you read the comments after the video on youtube many of them are calling it justified because they're assuming the guy that was shot is the guy that stabbed the football player to death inside the store --which if true may be in some way morally just, but certainly not the kind of legal system a reasonable person wants to live under. I don't understand people who think that it's ok for the police to kill someone merely because they believe he just killed someone else --though I'm not saying that's what happened here. The parents claim he returned to the scene to turn himself in....and before the shooting you can see him lingering at the corner of the store. I can't tell what's in his hand even with a full screen, but it is supposedly a knife.

It looks to me like one of the officers closes in a few paces which doesn't seem to make sense when someone is carrying a knife. A lot of commenters on youtube say he lunged, but it looks to me like he fell forward and dropped what was in his hand right after the first shot and pretty much remained in place until then. If he did move forward it looks like the officers closed the distance more than he did. It seems like you'd want to back off in case he rushed forward. It also seems like the attempt to obtain compliance was a little too fast since it doesn't look like the guy was advancing. Too bad another camera angle isn't available or the video isn't higher resolution.

They would not want to back off as it would leave the door to the store vulnerable to the BG gain access and potentially injure another or take a hostage. Also, if he had a knife, which they say he did, then he should have not been holding it or dropped it when engaged. There had to have been some motivation for the initial shot in the fact he started to move forward or transmitted a movement that indicated he was starting to advance.

Bottom line, trying to armchair quarterback this one is not gonna work as the resolution is too low and we can't see all of the perp or hear all of what transpired in audio.

Which is why cameras, while they may be helpful in some situations, aren't a panacea.....and can even lead to false conclusions. Honestly, I can't tell much at all from the video because the resolution is insufficient to see the most relevant elements.

But the combination of a body cam on all of the officers with the dash cam backup would be much more advantageous.

[baldeagle]

There's little question, from the video, that his hands were above his head when he was shot. If he had a knife in his hand, from that position (hands above his head), he could attack an officer very quickly. Since he had already killed a man with the knife, it's not unreasonable to believe that he would use it to kill again. Given that, and the lack of fine detail in the video, it's impossible for me to say if he moved forward or flinched or made any sort of movement that might indicate an attack in the officers' minds. Let the investigation begin, but I suspect this is a good shoot.

Some recent incidents of this nature have me wondering. Is it possible that the Tueller drill is influencing the actions of police officers? After all, if you know about the 21 foot rule and/or you've watched any video of the drill being demonstrated, it should make you very wary of being anything closer than 21 feet to an armed suspect. I would hate for an officer to be unaware of that drill and end up with a slit throat or a knife to the heart because he got too close.

Edit: I timed the encounter. The officers yelled commands at the suspect for 13 seconds before the first shot was fired.

[VMI77]

There's little question, from the video, that his hands were above his head when he was shot. If he had a knife in his hand, from that position (hands above his head), he could attack an officer very quickly. Since he had already killed a man with the knife, it's not unreasonable to believe that he would use it to kill again. Given that, and the lack of fine detail in the video, it's impossible for me to say if he moved forward or flinched or made any sort of movement that might indicate an attack in the officers' minds. Let the investigation begin, but I suspect this is a good shoot.

Some recent incidents of this nature have me wondering. Is it possible that the Tueller drill is influencing the actions of police officers? After all, if you know about the 21 foot rule and/or you've watched any video of the drill being demonstrated, it should make you very wary of being anything closer than 21 feet to an armed suspect. I would hate for an officer to be unaware of that drill and end up with a slit throat or a knife to the heart because he got too close.

Edit: I timed the encounter. The officers yelled commands at the suspect for 13 seconds before the first shot was fired.

I was watching an episode of "Justified" and to my surprise one member of a criminal family started talking about the Tueller drill....by name.

[Charles L. Cotton]

There's little question, from the video, that his hands were above his head when he was shot. If he had a knife in his hand, from that position (hands above his head), he could attack an officer very quickly. Since he had already killed a man with the knife, it's not unreasonable to believe that he would use it to kill again. Given that, and the lack of fine detail in the video, it's impossible for me to say if he moved forward or flinched or made any sort of movement that might indicate an attack in the officers' minds. Let the investigation begin, but I suspect this is a good shoot.

Some recent incidents of this nature have me wondering. Is it possible that the Tueller drill is influencing the actions of police officers? After all, if you know about the 21 foot rule and/or you've watched any video of the drill being demonstrated, it should make you very wary of being anything closer than 21 feet to an armed suspect. I would hate for an officer to be unaware of that drill and end up with a slit throat or a knife to the heart because he got too close.

Edit: I timed the encounter. The officers yelled commands at the suspect for 13 seconds before the first shot was fired.

I was watching an episode of "Justified" and to my surprise one member of a criminal family started talking about the Tueller drill....by name.

Now that's impressive. I guess that's a family that conducts continuing education courses for professional thugs.

Chas.