What are the laws on lake carry?The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is part of the U.S. Army. Do be aware that the Corps builds and operates many Dams in the United States. Many of these Dams can have State Parks right up next to them to take advantage of the Recreational potential of the lakes the Corps Dams make. Your Concealed Carry permit is not valid on any Corps Property. It is up to you to know where State Lands and Waters start and stop and Corps Land and Waters stops and starts.
Carry on Lakes??
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
Carry on Lakes??
What are the laws on carrying lakes?? Specifically Corps of Engineer lakes?? On a different site someone pointed out to me what Packing.org says about carrying on Corps of Engineer lakes...which I did not know.
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
hey I recognize that
:) What other site you talkin' about 
shawn... AKA emptylivewell
shawn... AKA emptylivewell
Re: hey I recognize that
http://www.TexasFishingForum.comshawn wrote::) What other site you talkin' about
shawn... AKA emptylivewell
Some dude says, "I don't think you can carry concealed on corp of engineer lakes..its FEDERAL property. Don't quote me on that, but that is what I have heard from many people who have asked them."
But then, I guess you already knew that. ;)
-Braden (aka Shane T.)
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
I can tell you the only thing I have been able to confirm on their website.... I know many laws do not apply to a CHL holder, but I think these would (IMHO)
327.13 Explosives, Firearms, Other Weapons and Fireworks.
(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) in the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
(2) being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Section 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from
or between hunting and fishing sites;
(3) being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
(4) written permission has been received from the District Commander.
(b) Possession of explosive or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless
written permission has been received from the District Commander.
I guess since it is part of the US Army and you can't carry a firearm on an army base, it is not a far stretch to think that you can not carry on US Army Corp of Engineer land either.
327.13 Explosives, Firearms, Other Weapons and Fireworks.
(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) in the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
(2) being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Section 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from
or between hunting and fishing sites;
(3) being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
(4) written permission has been received from the District Commander.
(b) Possession of explosive or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless
written permission has been received from the District Commander.
I guess since it is part of the US Army and you can't carry a firearm on an army base, it is not a far stretch to think that you can not carry on US Army Corp of Engineer land either.
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anygunanywhere
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Silly me....I thought the federal bill of rights had a second ammendment regarding a right that "shall not be infringed"?
I must have been mistaken. Corp of Engineers? Army? Are they not subject to "THE PEOPLE"?
Anygunanywhere
I must have been mistaken. Corp of Engineers? Army? Are they not subject to "THE PEOPLE"?
Anygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
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stevie_d_64
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Good point...shawn wrote:especially with some of the unsavery types that frequent boat ramps with no intentions of using the boat ramps themselves... alot of crime happens at the boat ramps! Thats one place I would not want to leave my gun in the car!
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
I don't leave anything valuable in my truck when it's at the ramp.shawn wrote:especially with some of the unsavery types that frequent boat ramps with no intentions of using the boat ramps themselves... alot of crime happens at the boat ramps! Thats one place I would not want to leave my gun in the car!
Nobody seems to know for sure on this thing. I think I'll just continue carrying when I fish.
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
I know for sure...
It is against the Federal Regulation as cited in the earlier post (36 CFR 327 et seq). If you are caught with a weapon you can be cited by the Corps Ranger. I know, even before this topic goes any further, it is inconsistent policy (Forest Service allows carry - Corps does not) and it was written before the concealed carry laws became a reality and commonplace. I have asked for an office of counsel (lawyers) review and was told absolutely the Corps will follow its regulation. Do I have to tell you who I work for??
The question is...where do the Corp waters stop and state waters start? Who knows?? Not me. I think I'll just take my chances. I've only seen Corps of Engineers on the water ONCE in my entire life of fishing...and that was at a lake that I don't fish on anymore.
I only have a boat for about a month out of the year (I typically steal my dad's boat for about a month this time of year). During that month I try to go fishing twice a week to take advantage of having the boat.
When I get my own boat and I'm out on the waters more frequently, maybe I'll give this topic a little bit more consideration. Until then, I'll continue to carry...and here's why:
A couple of weeks ago a buddy and I returned to the boat ramp around 10:30 PM. This is not a very busy boat ramp and there were only about 8 trucks/trailers parked. It is has very good lighting. I was not carrying.
As we approached the dock I noticed a man between probably 18-22 years old standing behind my truck/trailer. I keep an eye on him while tying off the boat because he's just acting very strange. I also notice that he is keeping his hands hidden (rolled up inside his shirt).
As I approach my truck he moves off to the side. He is approximately 35 feet away when I make eye contact and ask, "How's it going tonight?" He says nothing, but rather just looks at me very strange for a second and then turns the other way. As I'm getting in my truck, he positions himself at the entrance to the walkway going down to the dock where my boat is tied and my buddy is waiting. I keep watching him while I back the trailer down into the water.
He is under a light and I catch a glimpse of something shiny in his hand, which he immediately puts back in his shirt. I sit in my truck for a minute contemplating what to do. My cell phone gets no signal here and I'm not going to leave my buddy or my dad's boat behind. Thinking of the 21 feet rule, I arm myself with the Leatherman tool I keep in my truck...blade open and discretely tucked behind my wrist so that it can't be seen. At the very least I'm going to even the odds a little bit.
I get out of my truck and begin to walk his direction. As I do, he again moves off to the side...approximately 25-30 feet away. I again make eye contact and ask, "Is everything alright?" Once again, no comment. He just looks at me with strange eyes and turns the other way, still keeping his hands in his shirt. I keep an eye on him while walking down to the dock and tell my buddy about the whole situation and tell him to keep an eye on him (this guy's situation awareness was pathetic...he noticed I kept watching the guy but never paid any attention to the guy himself).
The guy walks over by a big dumpster and is just standing there...looking around. We load the boat, and to my relief, a local police officer comes driving up during his routine patrols. I flag him down and explain the entire sequence of events to him and he goes over to talk to the guy and see what's going on. It turned out that the kid was 18 years old and apparently "mentally challenged"...and was supposedly waiting for his parents to come pick him up. Why someone would leave their 18 year old "mentally challenged" kid at a boat ramp at 10:30 at night is beyond me, but that is the story the officer got. The shiny reflection I saw was his cell phone (which would not have worked unless he has better coverage than I do).
Luckily, I did not need a gun that night. But, it made me realize what a vulnerable situation I was in and I decided right then that I would not make that mistake again.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take my chances with the Corps...especially since I don't even know for sure where the Corps water stops and state water stops. I do know that the ramp I use is not a Corps ramp, so at least I'm legal there. If I ever get in trouble, you guys can tell me "I told you so."
One more thought and I'm done. Is a Corp Ranger even considered a magistrate or peace officer? If not, then we are not required to even tell them we are carrying...and they shouldn't have any reason to search my boat.
:)
I only have a boat for about a month out of the year (I typically steal my dad's boat for about a month this time of year). During that month I try to go fishing twice a week to take advantage of having the boat.
When I get my own boat and I'm out on the waters more frequently, maybe I'll give this topic a little bit more consideration. Until then, I'll continue to carry...and here's why:
A couple of weeks ago a buddy and I returned to the boat ramp around 10:30 PM. This is not a very busy boat ramp and there were only about 8 trucks/trailers parked. It is has very good lighting. I was not carrying.
As we approached the dock I noticed a man between probably 18-22 years old standing behind my truck/trailer. I keep an eye on him while tying off the boat because he's just acting very strange. I also notice that he is keeping his hands hidden (rolled up inside his shirt).
As I approach my truck he moves off to the side. He is approximately 35 feet away when I make eye contact and ask, "How's it going tonight?" He says nothing, but rather just looks at me very strange for a second and then turns the other way. As I'm getting in my truck, he positions himself at the entrance to the walkway going down to the dock where my boat is tied and my buddy is waiting. I keep watching him while I back the trailer down into the water.
He is under a light and I catch a glimpse of something shiny in his hand, which he immediately puts back in his shirt. I sit in my truck for a minute contemplating what to do. My cell phone gets no signal here and I'm not going to leave my buddy or my dad's boat behind. Thinking of the 21 feet rule, I arm myself with the Leatherman tool I keep in my truck...blade open and discretely tucked behind my wrist so that it can't be seen. At the very least I'm going to even the odds a little bit.
I get out of my truck and begin to walk his direction. As I do, he again moves off to the side...approximately 25-30 feet away. I again make eye contact and ask, "Is everything alright?" Once again, no comment. He just looks at me with strange eyes and turns the other way, still keeping his hands in his shirt. I keep an eye on him while walking down to the dock and tell my buddy about the whole situation and tell him to keep an eye on him (this guy's situation awareness was pathetic...he noticed I kept watching the guy but never paid any attention to the guy himself).
The guy walks over by a big dumpster and is just standing there...looking around. We load the boat, and to my relief, a local police officer comes driving up during his routine patrols. I flag him down and explain the entire sequence of events to him and he goes over to talk to the guy and see what's going on. It turned out that the kid was 18 years old and apparently "mentally challenged"...and was supposedly waiting for his parents to come pick him up. Why someone would leave their 18 year old "mentally challenged" kid at a boat ramp at 10:30 at night is beyond me, but that is the story the officer got. The shiny reflection I saw was his cell phone (which would not have worked unless he has better coverage than I do).
Luckily, I did not need a gun that night. But, it made me realize what a vulnerable situation I was in and I decided right then that I would not make that mistake again.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take my chances with the Corps...especially since I don't even know for sure where the Corps water stops and state water stops. I do know that the ramp I use is not a Corps ramp, so at least I'm legal there. If I ever get in trouble, you guys can tell me "I told you so."
One more thought and I'm done. Is a Corp Ranger even considered a magistrate or peace officer? If not, then we are not required to even tell them we are carrying...and they shouldn't have any reason to search my boat.
:)
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
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stevie_d_64
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You can sure learn a lot from Braden...
Not every situation dictates any aggressive pre-emptive move on our part...
You're a cool customer...And that was a good call to be aware of what was going on, but restrained in your actions...
Couldn't have played it any better...
Not every situation dictates any aggressive pre-emptive move on our part...
You're a cool customer...And that was a good call to be aware of what was going on, but restrained in your actions...
Couldn't have played it any better...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
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stevie_d_64
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- Posts: 7590
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 pm
- Location: 77504
BTW, your question about a "Corp Ranger" is a good one...
I would guess, and that is just a guess, that their capacity or authority is similar to a Game Warden (that their purpose is the enforcement rules and regs within their jurusidiction on their property)...
And I seriously doubt they'd know what it really means if someone like us volunteered our carry status with them...Right off the bat...
They may know your not supposed to have a gun on their property, but in your case, when your fishing, it may not be a big deal, because of the infrequent nature of running into someone like us...They may even be a CHL'er like us...Who knows...
There's a lot of variables in encounter situations like this, but for the most part anything outside a main-stream, credentialed Law Enforcement officer, uniformed or not...They are not going to immediately know my capacity...I'll take that chance, to avoid any initial sidetracking that that revelation might bring, to cloud over any business we need to conduct and focus on at that time...
I may be wrong in that last statement; but my being armed, is not an issue in almost any situation or issue...
Other states get by without notifications...And that their deal...I do know when I am supposed to notify, and that in and of itself creates these ambiguities with certain entities and who we are really supposed to notify per the law...
I would guess, and that is just a guess, that their capacity or authority is similar to a Game Warden (that their purpose is the enforcement rules and regs within their jurusidiction on their property)...
And I seriously doubt they'd know what it really means if someone like us volunteered our carry status with them...Right off the bat...
They may know your not supposed to have a gun on their property, but in your case, when your fishing, it may not be a big deal, because of the infrequent nature of running into someone like us...They may even be a CHL'er like us...Who knows...
There's a lot of variables in encounter situations like this, but for the most part anything outside a main-stream, credentialed Law Enforcement officer, uniformed or not...They are not going to immediately know my capacity...I'll take that chance, to avoid any initial sidetracking that that revelation might bring, to cloud over any business we need to conduct and focus on at that time...
I may be wrong in that last statement; but my being armed, is not an issue in almost any situation or issue...
Other states get by without notifications...And that their deal...I do know when I am supposed to notify, and that in and of itself creates these ambiguities with certain entities and who we are really supposed to notify per the law...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
Stevie, thanks for your kind words and your remarks about the Corps rangers.
I'm going to research this topic a little more just to see what I can find out. If I learn anything new I'll report back here.
Charles, if you happen to stick your head in here, what are your thoughts regarding this topic??
I'm going to research this topic a little more just to see what I can find out. If I learn anything new I'll report back here.
Charles, if you happen to stick your head in here, what are your thoughts regarding this topic??
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13
Carrying on the water is a good idea. I carry open when I am on the Trinity. I have some land out there where we are building a duck camp. All three of us carry guns open on the water.
It tends to deter pirates....yarrr! :)
Glenn
It tends to deter pirates....yarrr! :)
Glenn
Winners never quit, and quitters never win; but, if you never win, and never quit, you're a moron.