Family Purchase vs Straw Purchase

oohrah · Post by **oohrah** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:39 pm

I have a friend who is recently into shooting, but knows little of the law and does not have a CHL/LTC. He has asked me this question; his elderly aunt wants him to buy her a handgun to keep in her apartment. (I know this wrong on so many levels, but bear with me).

My understanding is that if she gives him the money to buy a handgun, and he does so and gives her the gun, he is making an illegal straw purchase, if he says the gun is for himself on the 4473. (Thinking about the LEO who bought a gun for his Uncle and was convicted of a felony).

So what if he purchases a handgun with his own money, and turns around and sells it to his aunt for the same amount the next day, how is that different from a straw purchase?

Because I could go to Cabelas tomorrow and buy a handgun, and turn around and sell it to a forum member (or anyone else for that matter) couldn't I?

For what it's worth, I have advised him to take his aunt to the range.

Vol Texan · Post by **Vol Texan** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:43 pm

I'm no lawyer, but I'd think buying it and selling to her the next day is asking for trouble, especially because it was the intent all along for her money be used for the purchase.

If he were to gift it to her, then no problem.

In a perfect world, I'd bring her to the gun store, help her with the selection, and then let her fill out the form.

Beiruty · Post by **Beiruty** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:54 pm

drag her to the FFL dealer and let her pick what she wants.

nyj · Post by **nyj** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:04 pm

A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.

rotor · Post by **rotor** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:44 pm

nyj wrote:A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.

Are you sure about that? I believe that even if the person is allowed to own it that it is a straw purchase if you hand it over as you describe.

RoyGBiv · Post by **RoyGBiv** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:32 am

Beiruty wrote:drag her to the FFL dealer and let her pick what she wants.

Maybe "drag" is a bit harsh, but I might suggest it would be a nice day out visiting the FFL. Gifts are ok, what the OP describes is not.

Take your aunt to the FFL.

JuJust my opinion

K.Mooneyham · Post by **K.Mooneyham** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:34 am

I read about a case not so long ago where a man was able to buy a certain pistol for a reduced price, then re-sold it to a relative for that amount. They got in some trouble over it and I believe it was deemed a straw purchase, even though the receiving person was clear to own firearms. The issue may have been that it was across state lines, though, so I'm not certain. I'm sorry I cannot provide better details, but maybe another forum member can.

I agree that the aunt should go to the FFL and purchase her own firearm, and the nephew can assist her picking out something. That would eliminate any question about legalities. Or he could buy it himself, and gift it to her. Lots of people buy firearms as presents.

mrvmax · Post by **mrvmax** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:21 am

nyj wrote:A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.

Not true, see the linked article. You can give it as a gift but otherwise take her to buy it.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-cou ... 1402932979

suthdj · Post by **suthdj** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:15 am

Take her to a range where you can rent some guns first buying the wrong gun is expensive.

C-dub · Post by **C-dub** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:31 am

nyj wrote:A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.

Nope. The cop and his uncle were both legally capable of owning and purchasing a handgun where they lived. The only reason they did it the way they did was because the cop got a LE discount. They still lost.

nyj · Post by **nyj** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:38 am

C-dub wrote:
nyj wrote:A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.
Nope. The cop and his uncle were both legally capable of owning and purchasing a handgun where they lived. The only reason they did it the way they did was because the cop got a LE discount. They still lost.

Ok, so show me where it says doing the above is a straw purchase.

Also, prove to me that I didn't sell my gun to little miss auntie.

RoyGBiv · Post by **RoyGBiv** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:20 am

C-dub wrote:
nyj wrote:A straw purchase would be purchasing a gun and handing it over to someone who is not allowed to own it.
Nope. The cop and his uncle were both legally capable of owning and purchasing a handgun where they lived. The only reason they did it the way they did was because the cop got a LE discount. They still lost.

IIRC, the problem was that the LEO received the money for the purchase from his friend before he bought the gun from the FFL, so, straw buy.

The way I understand it (opinion! not legal advice) is that if I buy a gun today intending to keep it, take it to the range and decide I hate it, I can sell it today legally. If my neighbor gives me the money for the gun and I go buy it (because I get some deal he can't get, like a LE discount) and I fill out the 4473 saying the gun is for me..... that's a no-no.

None of this would disallow a "gift" purchase.... I bought a gun for my wife for Christmas... She's not paying me for it... I just marked the "Gift" box on the 4473 and know that my wife is not a prohibited person. No problem there.

ScottDLS · Post by **ScottDLS** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:28 am

K.Mooneyham wrote:I read about a case not so long ago where a man was able to buy a certain pistol for a reduced price, then re-sold it to a relative for that amount. They got in some trouble over it and I believe it was deemed a straw purchase, even though the receiving person was clear to own firearms. The issue may have been that it was across state lines, though, so I'm not certain. I'm sorry I cannot provide better details, but maybe another forum member can.

I agree that the aunt should go to the FFL and purchase her own firearm, and the nephew can assist her picking out something. That would eliminate any question about legalities. Or he could buy it himself, and gift it to her. Lots of people buy firearms as presents.

This was a Supreme Court case and the (straw) purchaser was retired LEO who the Feds were after for something else. He got LEO discount on the gun, but had arranged to buy it for his uncle in the first place. Uncle gave him a check in advance. Uncle was OK to buy himself. Man charged with lying on the 4473 and SCOTUS upheld. The Feds will get you if they want you. Apparently they had a bank robbery case on this guy that they couldn't win (maybe he didn't do it...maybe he did).

cyphertext · Post by **cyphertext** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:32 am

Yes, you can buy a gun for your aunt as a gift... but it must really be a gift, as in you are paying for it.

No, she can not give you the money to go buy one for her.

No, you can not buy it and then resell it to her the next day, if the intent was to sell it to her all along. (Intent would be hard to prove)

Also, if you take her to the store, make sure she is the one picking out the firearm, and asking the questions of the clerk. Needs to be very clear that you are there to advise and help, but that the gun is for her and she is purchasing... otherwise, the salesperson may stop the sale for fear of a straw purchase.

Abraham · Post by **Abraham** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:32 am

oohrah,

Straw purchase considerations aside, once the decision has been made as to what gun your friends aunt receives, please have him teach her (or find some else who's qualified) how to be safe with her pistol and how to accurately shoot it.

Simple possession of a pistol is comforting from a self defense perspective, but if she doesn't really know how to safely and accurately use it, it could be very well be extremely dangerous for her and others...

Some of us elderly (I hate to describe myself that way, but technically that's what I am) are proficient with arms, while others haven't a clue.

It sounds like your friends elderly aunt could really stand to get some quality training in firearms.

Good Luck!

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