Self Defense Toolbox

[DSARGE]

Frankie the Yankee brought up a good point in another thread. I didn't want to hijack his original post, so I brought it here. This is something I've wonderend about and thought about posting in the past.

We have all thought of and ran through scenarios of someone with a gun or knife attacking us or our families, but what about the drunk or pothead starting a physical altercation and not pulling a weapon? My plan is to get out of the immediate area and separate myself from the idiot, but what if you can't? What if someone gets hands on you before you have a chance to draw? We could go back and forth on the legality of drawing a firearm in this situation, but I feel a CHL and hand to hand combat go hand in hand.

I think that my chances of being in a confrontation with "less than deadly intent" from the aggressor is far more likely than someone pulling a gun. I think all of us have the same mindset when it comes to defending ourselves. Who trains in self defense, hand to hand combat, or other "unarmed" means of self preservation? What about carrying pepper spray or similar devices? What about verbal judo?

[txinvestigator]

Frankie the Yankee brought up a good point in another thread. I didn't want to hijack his original post, so I brought it here. This is something I've wonderend about and thought about posting in the past.

We have all thought of and ran through scenarios of someone with a gun or knife attacking us or our families, but what about the drunk or pothead starting a physical altercation and not pulling a weapon? My plan is to get out of the immediate area and separate myself from the idiot, but what if you can't? What if someone gets hands on you before you have a chance to draw? We could go back and forth on the legality of drawing a firearm in this situation, but I feel a CHL and hand to hand combat go hand in hand.

I think that my chances of being in a confrontation with "less than deadly intent" from the aggressor is far more likely than someone pulling a gun. I think all of us have the same mindset when it comes to defending ourselves. Who trains in self defense, hand to hand combat, or other "unarmed" means of self preservation? What about carrying pepper spray or similar devices? What about verbal judo?

We all were taught non-violent dispute resolution skills to obtain a CHL. The nice thing about that is those skills are applicable in everyday life. Men, especially, need to learn to let the ego go, and strive to resolve conflict EVEN if it means admitting wrong. As Mr. Miyagi (The Karate Kid) said, "fighting never good, someone always get hurt."

That said, despite our best efforts we might encounter a situation where the other party just forces it, and we cannot disengage safely. I believe, and I tell my students, that if you carry the means of inflicting death (IMO) you have an obligation to have some less lethal means of defense at your ready disposal.

I carry OC everywhere. I have been involved in Martial Arts for years, but I would much rather use OC than go hands on with anybody.

[flintknapper]

Frankie the Yankee brought up a good point in another thread. I didn't want to hijack his original post, so I brought it here. This is something I've wonderend about and thought about posting in the past.

We have all thought of and ran through scenarios of someone with a gun or knife attacking us or our families, but what about the drunk or pothead starting a physical altercation and not pulling a weapon? My plan is to get out of the immediate area and separate myself from the idiot, but what if you can't? What if someone gets hands on you before you have a chance to draw? We could go back and forth on the legality of drawing a firearm in this situation, but I feel a CHL and hand to hand combat go hand in hand.

I think that my chances of being in a confrontation with "less than deadly intent" from the aggressor is far more likely than someone pulling a gun. I think all of us have the same mindset when it comes to defending ourselves. Who trains in self defense, hand to hand combat, or other "unarmed" means of self preservation? What about carrying pepper spray or similar devices? What about verbal judo?

We all were taught non-violent dispute resolution skills to obtain a CHL. The nice thing about that is those skills are applicable in everyday life. Men, especially, need to learn to let the ego go, and strive to resolve conflict EVEN if it means admitting wrong. As Mr. Miyagi (The Karate Kid) said, "fighting never good, someone always get hurt."

That said, despite our best efforts we might encounter a situation where the other party just forces it, and we cannot disengage safely. I believe, and I tell my students, that if you carry the means of inflicting death (IMO) you have an obligation to have some less lethal means of defense at your ready disposal.

I carry OC everywhere. I have been involved in Martial Arts for years, but I would much rather use OC than go hands on with anybody.

Sage advice.........well said.

[seamusTX]

I carry OC everywhere.

Ditto.

- Jim

[carlson1]

Everything that TXI, Flint, and Seamus said!

[OverEasy]

The fact that your pistol may fail to function is another reason you should have several options. I carry Fox OC and a knife all the time and a BUG some times. I hope that my mouth or my feet would do the job but if not, I have some other options. Probably the best one is "Situational Awareness". Avoid the conflict to begin with. Yes, I know that is not always possible. That's why I carry all that stuff.
Regards, OE

[LedJedi]

I’ll put my 5 cents in here. (we all know I put in more than 2 cents)

This is what I was taught years ago in Aikido

Walk Away Before Defend
Defend Before Attack
Attack Before Maim
Maim Before Kill

I still generally believe that’s a GREAT way to handle aggressors.

They get aggressive, try to leave. If for some reason you can’t or they won’t let you then you defend yourself. If they continue, then you go on the offensive. If after a good smack they still don’t get the picture then you break something like a wrist, reverse a joint or otherwise attempt to immobilize them with pain. If that is still not effective (I just can’t imagine it not being, I’ve only got up to stage 3.) Then do what you have to do. The idea is always use the minimum amount of force necessary and use a reasonable escalation of force.

Now that I carry a gun though I’m really not thrilled about going hand to hand with someone. I’ve modified it a bit now.

If I have to get to the attack level, I’ll just skip right to the gun.

Someone takes a swing.
I dodge and try to leave or talk myself out of it.
They take another swing.
I defend myself, try to immediately introduce them to a horizontal resting position or reverse a joint and give a warning that if they do not stop “there will be consequences.�
They swing again and at that point I’m about to be in fear for my life. The pistol comes out.

I am NOT going to wrestle or do close quarter combat when I am armed. If they feel/discover I’m armed that can get dangerous. If in the process of trying to leave or talk myself out of it if they touch me and actually DISCOVER I have a gun, I will pull it if they don’t immediately back off.

I’m not a fan of using OC or CS. If it gets in MY eyes then that may keep me from using a gun. If I had an option for a stun gun I might try that, but at the moment I don’t carry one.

Does anyone know if a tazer is legal for civilians in Texas?

I STRONGLY recommend that EVERYONE become trained in a defensive martial art like Aikido. I’ve worked with my wife and my daughter (7 yrs old) both. I haven’t had to use it since I quit being a TDCJ guard (and really only used I once or twice there), but the instincts are always there.

It’s better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I’ll put my 5 cents in here. (we all know I put in more than 2 cents)

This is what I was taught years ago in Aikido

Walk Away Before Defend
Defend Before Attack
Attack Before Maim
Maim Before Kill

I still generally believe that’s a GREAT way to handle aggressors.

They get aggressive, try to leave. ..............

Excellent post and advice.

Especially the fact that if you're carrying, if someone starts grappling with you and "finds" the gun, the situation sort of "self escalates" to deadly force, unless tha BG immediately backs off.

I don't want to load up with a whole bunch of equipment like OC, knife, etc. I just take my gun and my reasonable person's judgement.

I tend to simply back off from a confrontation, though it's been years since I've had one. So far it has worked well.

[LedJedi]

Excellent post and advice.

thanks man.

I have a link to an EXCELLENT speech a guy posted on Youtube on this topic. He cusses like a sailor so I won't post it here but the guy is my hero. He tells it like it is.

PM me if you'd like a link and I'll send it over.

[flintknapper]

I STRONGLY recommend that EVERYONE become trained in a defensive martial art like Aikido. I’ve worked with my wife and my daughter (7 yrs old) both.

Your wife is 7 yrs old?


Just kidding.

Great that you have their safety in mind.

For those who are physically able....it is a good idea to get some rudimentary training.

You are much more likely to need hand to hand skills than lethal force skills day in day out.

[txinvestigator]

Someone takes a swing.
I dodge and try to leave or talk myself out of it.
They take another swing.
I defend myself, try to immediately introduce them to a horizontal resting position or reverse a joint and give a warning that if they do not stop “there will be consequences.�
They swing again and at that point I’m about to be in fear for my life. The pistol comes out.

Being in fear of your life is not a justification to using deadly force. You must reasonably believe that you need to immediately use deadly force to stop the others use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force. It would be a bad call to pulll your gun in that situatuion. You have now introduced a deadly weapon into a situation that does not call for it. What would you do when the person then moved towards you? Especially a person who is so willing to admit what a MA exoert they are, a jury would have a tough time buying a person throwing a punch at you (the Aikido expert) could cause your death or serious bodily injury.

I am NOT going to wrestle or do close quarter combat when I am armed. If they feel/discover I’m armed that can get dangerous. If in the process of trying to leave or talk myself out of it if they touch me and actually DISCOVER I have a gun, I will pull it if they don’t immediately back off.

That is also bad tactics. Your carrying a gun puts you in a position to be less likely to use deadly force; don't use it as some magic weapon simply because you are carrying it. The law does not allow for what "might" happen.

I’m not a fan of using OC or CS. If it gets in MY eyes then that may keep me from using a gun. If I had an option for a stun gun I might try that, but at the moment I don’t carry one.

Are you trained in the use of OC? It can and likely will get some back on you, but training will teach you how to handle that. It is much better than shooting someone because "you were afraid that if you went hands on they MIGHT discover you were carrying a gun."

Does anyone know if a tazer is legal for civilians in Texas?

***sigh***, yes they are.

[LedJedi]

Being in fear of your life is not a justification to using deadly force.

I hear what you're saying txinvestigator, but i respectfully disagree with your reasoning. I very much believe that being in fear for my life is justification for deadly force on a personal level. There may be legal arguments against that, but frankly, I don't care. That is my own personal belief. If I end up doing jail time for that belief at some point at least I'll be alive and in jail which is better than legal and 6 feet under any day.

Hand to hand can very much be considered deadly force. If after multiple strikes I'm still not able to 1) leave or talk my way out of the situation 2) use reasonable non-deadly force myself (by means of hand-to-hand self defense) then I feel legally i'm perfectly justified in moving to deadly force (pistol).

That's my opinion and is very much in line with what I understand as being legally legitimate. We all know it comes down to the jury and the arguments made by the lawyers. I'm simply stating what my own personal boundaries are and what my use of force plan is.

I did not say I would jump directly to the pistol. Read my original post, "If in the process of trying to leave or talk myself out of it if they touch me and actually DISCOVER I have a gun, I will pull it if they don’t immediately back off. " IF they find the gun during the course of a grappling then I will use it IF they don't immediately back of because I'm not going to allow THEM to come in for another round with the intention of using my own weapon against me.

Yes, i'm trained in OC and CS both. I stand behind my logic on that.

I did not classify myself as an "Aikido Expert" and neither would a court.

[seamusTX]

I hear what you're saying txinvestigator, but i respectfully disagree with your reasoning. I very much believe that being in fear for my life is justification for deadly force on a personal level. There may be legal arguments against that, but frankly, I don't care.

You can believe what you want and act accordingly. I hope your luck holds up.

For any lurkers who happen to read this, Section 9 of the Texas Penal Code gives specific justifications and defenses for using deadly force. Being in fear of your life is not one of them. That is TV talk.

Anyone who fails to understand the law risks being arrested, bankrupted by legal fees, and going to prison, with all that implies for the well-being of his family and future employment prospects.

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

I hear what you're saying txinvestigator, but i respectfully disagree with your reasoning. I very much believe that being in fear for my life is justification for deadly force on a personal level. There may be legal arguments against that, but frankly, I don't care.

You can believe what you want and act accordingly. I hope your luck holds up.

For any lurkers who happen to read this, Section 9 of the Texas Penal Code gives specific justifications and defenses for using deadly force. Being in fear of your life is not one of them. That is TV talk.

Anyone who fails to understand the law risks being arrested, bankrupted by legal fees, and going to prison, with all that implies for the well-being of his family and future employment prospects.

- Jim

And exactly the point of this thread, I believe. Good post Jim.

Too many people want to turn to their handgun too quickly. I actually feel badly for them.

Being in fear of your life may be a valid way to explain how you FELT when you were justified in using deadly force, but it is NOT justification.