Discussing and Debating

Topics that do not fit anywhere else. Absolutely NO discussions of religion, race, or immigration!

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

Post Reply
User avatar
mojo84
Senior Member
Posts: 9045
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Boerne, TX (Kendall County)

Discussing and Debating

Post by mojo84 »

It's apparently many of us feel passionately about the upcoming election. However, allowing passion, fear, anger, frustration or loyalty to overcome us and drive the discussion is neither a good excuse or productive. I too am guilty of this and plan to work on getting better being more civil when engaging with someone with different opinions if they are willing to do the same. Dr. Hurd does a good job of discussing this.

https://drhurd.com/2016/10/18/61340/
I keep hearing the question: How to weather political differences with friends and associates, given this combative presidential election year?
Then I read this at Psychology Today online, by Susan Heitler Ph.D.:
The impulse to convince others of the rightness of your view and the wrongness of theirs gets all the stronger for everyone when the issue feels like one of importance. The outcome of Presidential elections in [particular] is likely to have strong impacts on people’s lives, i.e., on their financial status, on how much government programs will either help or hinder them, on whether our citizens will be safe from physical danger with regard to guns, terrorism, international enemies, etc.
Some people have more, and some less, ability to allow others to be different. This ability takes patience. It takes willingness to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, that is, to assume that there is something valid in their viewpoint as well as in yours. This ability also rests on ability to keep your emotions in the calm zone.
If you go into a discussion on the premise, “I must change his mind…I must change his mind!” then it logically follows you’ll be much more intolerant and hostile than if you entered the discussion on a rational assumption. Example: “I probably won’t change his mind. But at least I got my point-of-view out there.”
Emotions arise because of what’s important to us. If things start to escalate, it’s easy to feed into the problem by resorting to personal attacks. But that’s a dead-end street, and an indication the discussion has already gone wrong. Better to abort than continue. The moment someone attacks me personally for my views, discussion is over. It’s worse than pointless to continue, because it’s no longer a political or intellectual discussion you’re having.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
User avatar
mojo84
Senior Member
Posts: 9045
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Boerne, TX (Kendall County)

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by mojo84 »

Gowdy makes some excellent points. Feeling a little convicted.

https://youtu.be/0oASbNihf3w
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
talltex
Senior Member
Posts: 782
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:40 pm
Location: Waco area

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by talltex »

Last night I ran across a replay of several Presidential debates from 1984, 1988 and 1992. I watched the 1984 debate between Reagan and Mondale in its entirety and it made me yearn for the "good ol' days". WHAT a stunning difference 30 years has made. Not ONCE did either candidate interrupt or attempt to speak over the other. They behaved "Presidentially" with good manners and respect for each other. They disagreed strongly on several topics, but did so with the utmost respect and each listened to the other's statements intently and quietly and responded when the moderator told them it was their turn. They disagreed with good humor and wit, without ever being rude or hateful. They even acknowledged each other with a nod or smile when one made a good point in a rebuttal statement or scored an obvious point.When the debate ended, they walked straight to each other and shook hands warmly and patted each other on the back and congratulated each others performance. My wife said "don't you wish we could vote for either one of them today...I'd be tickled to death to have a conservative Democrat like Mondale over anyone that ran this year." I agreed with her. Reagan won that election carrying every state except Mondale's home state of Minnesota and Washington DC.
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11

"The race may not always go to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets" Damon Runyon
User avatar
bblhd672
Senior Member
Posts: 4811
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:43 am
Location: TX

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by bblhd672 »

Yep, the libs/progs/socialists/Dems decided that being nice and attempting to explain and justify their positions was not going to win them many elections - hence civility and politeness were flushed down the drain.
The left lies about everything. Truth is a liberal value, and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. People on the left say whatever advances their immediate agenda. Power is their moral lodestar; therefore, truth is always subservient to it. - Dennis Prager
User avatar
Middle Age Russ
Senior Member
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am
Location: Spring-Woodlands

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by Middle Age Russ »

Yep, the libs/progs/socialists/Dems decided that being nice and attempting to explain and justify their positions was not going to win them many elections - hence civility and politeness were flushed down the drain.
:iagree: Rules for Radicals and other collectivist reference books have a few common threads. First, subvert the education system. Second, co-opt the media. Third, use ad hominem attacks on adversaries who use facts and reason to debate. Fourth, repeat falsehoods often enough and loud enough, and they will begin to ring as truth in the minds of people. What we are witnessing is a political landscape altered by these collectivist methods -- and to promote the collectivists vision. The playing field never was really level, but the collectivists have gained home-field advantage and they are playing downhill. Barring a Trump victory and true reforms in many areas, the Republic is almost certainly lost. Stay on your soap-boxes, make your deposit in the ballot box, and keep the ammo box dry and secure.
Russ
Stay aware and engaged. Awareness buys time; time buys options. Survival may require moving quickly past the Observe, Orient and Decide steps to ACT.
NRA Life Member, CRSO, Basic Pistol, PPITH & PPOTH Instructor, Texas 4-H Certified Pistol & Rifle Coach, Texas LTC Instructor
User avatar
AF-Odin
Senior Member
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:00 pm
Location: Near Fort Hood

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by AF-Odin »

I too wish that we could return to a degree of civility. The liberals try and make everything about race and sexism and the NRA endorsed candidate keeps going off message and railing about the Dem candidate's health and lack of respect for the truth. In my opinion, neither of these tacks is what the independent voter wants to hear. I believe that the independent wants to hear what the candidate will do for the economy, for national defense, and about the myriad of social issues from education to religious liberty, to respecting the constitution. Could this not be done without interrupting. talking over, and name calling?
AF-Odin
Texas LTC, SSC & FRC Instructor
NRA Pistol, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection in the Home Instructor & RSO
NRA & TSRA Life Member
User avatar
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts: 26885
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by The Annoyed Man »

bblhd672 wrote:Yep, the libs/progs/socialists/Dems decided that being nice and attempting to explain and justify their positions was not going to win them many elections - hence civility and politeness were flushed down the drain.
When Reagan ran against Mondale, the big issues were the prosecution of the Cold War (in all hemispheres), the fate of the nation's space program, and not so much whether or not we ought to have a welfare system, but whether or not it should be structured so as to encourage or discourage people to be on it. Oppo research wasn't nearly the political "discipline" it is today.

But beyond that, politics takes place in the context of a culture, and our culture has changed and coarsened radically since then. There was no anonymity of the Internet back then, to give people an avenue to express toxic social habits without fear of reprisal. The penalties for bad moral decisions could destroy political ambition. Gary Hart's affair with Donna Rice torpedoed his election hopes at a time when he was considered the most dynamic post-WW2 democrat presidential candidate.

These days, people say "what.....he had an affair? Well at least he didn't murder anybody." ......unless it's Hillary Clinton, in which case it's irrelevant to the nation's media because Donald Trump.

In that climate, it is very difficult to have a collegial discussion with someone who takes the lib/prog viewpoint - because at its heart, their political movement is aimed at enabling criminality, abolishing the rule of law, and trampling on my personal freedoms .......unless of course it is to be free to kill as many babies as I want to, or have the state pay for all the unprotected sex I want, etc., etc. When the other side conflates licentiousness with liberty, then he and I have nothing to talk about, except would they like a piece of raw meat to put over that black eye I'm about to give them.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT
User avatar
bblhd672
Senior Member
Posts: 4811
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:43 am
Location: TX

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by bblhd672 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:Yep, the libs/progs/socialists/Dems decided that being nice and attempting to explain and justify their positions was not going to win them many elections - hence civility and politeness were flushed down the drain.
When Reagan ran against Mondale, the big issues were the prosecution of the Cold War (in all hemispheres), the fate of the nation's space program, and not so much whether or not we ought to have a welfare system, but whether or not it should be structured so as to encourage or discourage people to be on it. Oppo research wasn't nearly the political "discipline" it is today.

But beyond that, politics takes place in the context of a culture, and our culture has changed and coarsened radically since then. There was no anonymity of the Internet back then, to give people an avenue to express toxic social habits without fear of reprisal. The penalties for bad moral decisions could destroy political ambition. Gary Hart's affair with Donna Rice torpedoed his election hopes at a time when he was considered the most dynamic post-WW2 democrat presidential candidate.

These days, people say "what.....he had an affair? Well at least he didn't murder anybody." ......unless it's Hillary Clinton, in which case it's irrelevant to the nation's media because Donald Trump.

In that climate, it is very difficult to have a collegial discussion with someone who takes the lib/prog viewpoint - because at its heart, their political movement is aimed at enabling criminality, abolishing the rule of law, and trampling on my personal freedoms .......unless of course it is to be free to kill as many babies as I want to, or have the state pay for all the unprotected sex I want, etc., etc. When the other side conflates licentiousness with liberty, then he and I have nothing to talk about, except would they like a piece of raw meat to put over that black eye I'm about to give them.
:iagree:
The left lies about everything. Truth is a liberal value, and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. People on the left say whatever advances their immediate agenda. Power is their moral lodestar; therefore, truth is always subservient to it. - Dennis Prager
User avatar
Skiprr
Moderator
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Outskirts of Houston

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by Skiprr »

talltex wrote:Last night I ran across a replay of several Presidential debates from 1984, 1988 and 1992. I watched the 1984 debate between Reagan and Mondale in its entirety and it made me yearn for the "good ol' days". WHAT a stunning difference 30 years has made. Not ONCE did either candidate interrupt or attempt to speak over the other. They behaved "Presidentially" with good manners and respect for each other. They disagreed strongly on several topics, but did so with the utmost respect and each listened to the other's statements intently and quietly and responded when the moderator told them it was their turn. They disagreed with good humor and wit, without ever being rude or hateful. They even acknowledged each other with a nod or smile when one made a good point in a rebuttal statement or scored an obvious point.When the debate ended, they walked straight to each other and shook hands warmly and patted each other on the back and congratulated each others performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj_xt5G1sFE
Join the NRA or upgrade your membership today. Support the Texas Firearms Coalition and subscribe to the Podcast.
I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Morbidrealities
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by Morbidrealities »

There is only one talking point that swings my vote. SCJ nominations. Period. Point Blank. I can survive 4 years of Trump in the Whitehouse, no matter what I personally think of him. I however do not believe this country can survive 4 years of a Clinton presidency. Not with who she's nominating for SCJ seats.
Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts: 4340
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Discussing and Debating

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

This election cycle is definitely the nastiest in my lifetime. I have seen exactly one HRH ad that mentioned anything positive about her - that she is a champion for women. Putting aside the absurdity of that claim coming from someone who has repeatedly attacked her husbands female victims, it was at least trying to be positive. Every other ad I have seen from her just attacks Trump.

We have one candidate who has based her entire campaign on hate and who can not tell the truth if her life depended on it. And we have another candidate whom the media is doing everything they can to portray in the same manner. So to the average voter, it is a choice amongst "deplorables" and each one is trying to convince you that the other guy/gal is more deplorable than they are.

I vote for secession.
Post Reply

Return to “Off-Topic”