Honor guard pistol BEWARE

[cmgee67]

This pistol is not drop safe. I don’t own one and never will. Just spreading the word stay safe!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuv09VgALs

[JRG]

Wow! I will not be adding one of these to my collection.

Probably Honor Defense will not do anything. If they have to recall/fix their guns, they would probably go bankrupt and be out of business.

Joe

[Soccerdad1995]

I am not familiar with the manufacturer of this gun at all. But I do think that this is the sort of thing that gives gun makers a very black eye. The design deficiency is forgivable, given that they copied the gun on a well known model (Sig P320). But when they were told of the deficiency, they appear to have not only ignored it, but to have actually taken steps to actively cover it up.

That said, I know we are getting only one side of the story here, and I would love to see a response from Honor Defense on their version of exactly what they did after being told of the safety issue, whether they pressured anyone to not report on it, etc. And, of course, what they are doing to fix the design and retrofit all guns that have already left their factory.

[Pawpaw]

The most disturbing thing about this is that Patrick Roberts was threatened with termination by the editor of The Firearm Blog if he went public with this discovery. Check the video in the OP, starting at the 8:30 mark.

[flechero]

Since it's based on the 320 design, I see the conundrum... the 320 passed all the testing protocols in place at the time. And thus only a voluntary "upgrade" is available.

Lots of other designs passed the standards of the day and didn't offer a "fix" even though they aren't "safe" by today's drop safety protocols.

From a practical standpoint- a major recall could bankrupt a business... Of course, in the internet age, so can a handful of viral videos. (even if they lack a response or explanation from the mfr.)

I think I could get a bunch of guns to fire if I beat them with a hammer. Nylon tipped is not a soft hammer. The alternative is a gun that's SO SAFE, it may not fire when intended.

Edited to add: I have no interest in Honor Guard, but do own a 320 (which has been "upgraded"). They may have wanted him to wait just long enough to verify the testing, just like Sig did, before posting it all over the internet.

[treadlightly]

I'm not sure what to think. Without a doubt, I prefer drop safe guns, but I also don't have any problems with my Series 70 Colt. Maybe I should, but I don't. I've had that gun since it was new in the box in the 70's. It's got a 3.5 pound trigger, as measured with an electronic trigger gauge, just like it had more than 5000+ rounds and over 40 years ago. It's an old friend. I've always been aware it's not drop safe because of its inertial firing pin.

The P320 (and apparently the Honor Guard) are less drop safe than my Series 70, or such is my perception.

The Series 70's design weakness, if we must call it that, is that if enough inertia is applied the efforts of the hammer are mimicked.

The P320 releases full striker spring force in a drop discharge. To me, that's riskier.

Riskier yet is the combination of a short throw trigger and no independent safety control. A cocked and locked 1911 won't discharge if something engages the trigger.

I understand nothing should engage the trigger. I understand that not disengaging a safety could kill you. I also don't think there is anything wrong with a half inch trigger pull if you're not going to have a separate safety.

I carried a P320 for a while and I think I could carry one the rest of my days without marring my unblemished butt. I just like to stack the odds a little heavier in my favor where I can.

I'm outside the norm in this striker/safetyless world. I get that, too.

[rotor]

Got my Sig P320 back after "recall". I think that the Honor Guard people will literally have to bite the bullet on this and get their guns fixed or be owned by a law firm. GM is still trying to figure out how not to pay the families of deceased people after ignition switch fiasco. In general I do not like the idea of lawyers making the decision but in this case (and GM) I believe they have to step forward and fix these defects.

I will never buy a GM product again. I might buy an Honor Guard product if they fix things.

[Pawpaw]

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2017/12/2 ... -industry/

Yesterday, when I wrote about the recently found issue with the Honor Guard handguns, there was another element to the story. In particular, the issue was an allegation that another gun website had information and had refused to report it. In the video was a screenshot of a text conversation telling Patrick Roberts, who wrote for the blog in question at the time, to have no further contact with Honor Defense.

At The Truth About Guns, they note this was in August of this year that this took place.

August.

Let’s let that sink in just a bit.

Over those three-plus months, a website that is devoted to sharing news of the firearm industry has known that a firearm has a potentially fatal flaw and has said nothing?

[Liberty]

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2017/12/2 ... -industry/

Yesterday, when I wrote about the recently found issue with the Honor Guard handguns, there was another element to the story. In particular, the issue was an allegation that another gun website had information and had refused to report it. In the video was a screenshot of a text conversation telling Patrick Roberts, who wrote for the blog in question at the time, to have no further contact with Honor Defense.

At The Truth About Guns, they note this was in August of this year that this took place.

August.

Let’s let that sink in just a bit.

Over those three-plus months, a website that is devoted to sharing news of the firearm industry has known that a firearm has a potentially fatal flaw and has said nothing?

I don't see much new here. Almost every review I read or watch, fawns over a new gun. American Rifleman is amongst the worst. I hardly ever hear them say anything negative about any gun. Some times they brazenly use the same text as the manufacturers marketing pages. Personally the only honest reviews I see are from individuals on the gun forums.

[cmgee67]

I agree. The only honest reviews you can get are from the gun owners themselves. I can’t stand the gun shows that come on tv because they act like trained monkeys. They only talk about whoever pays them the most to say good things. SIG is the worst in this area that I have seen. I personally do not like Sig. I’ll stick with Glock and M&P.

[The Annoyed Man]

For those of you who don’t know this, Patrick R. is our own killerfly128. He doesn’t post here very often anymore, but he’s a great guy. He’s been to my house, but it turns out that, after I moved in October, we now live fairly close to one another. Before starting up with The Firearm Rack, he was a co-founder of TFB TV, making a ton of great review videos for them.

Regarding the Honor Guard pistol..... Even my steel-framed 1911A1 Springfield will survive a drop test without discharging, because Springfield was smart enough to use a titanium firing pin and a heavier than normal firing pin spring. End of problem. The gun will not discharge by being dropped .... at least not any height it is likely to be dropped from. If you want to test it by dropping it onto concrete from a helicopter 150 ft up and moving at 40 mph, all bets are off. But that would likely apply to almost any pistol.

However, in that video, Patrick did not hit the gun that hard. He really didn’t. The gun shouldn’t go off. I would be willing to bet that my 1943 vintage, all original Ithaca 1911A1 would not fire after being struck with the same force. Neither it, nor the Springfield have any kind of firing pin retention device. So, it is really a problem of striker-fired pistols, in which the striker is kept under spring tension in its normal carry state. It is incumbent upon manufacturers of striker-fired pistols to incorporate a design feature which will keep the striker in check until the moment the trigger is pulled. If both the P320 and the Honor Guard had such a mechanism in place, and it routinely fails to keep the striker in check when struck fairly lightly on the back of the frame, then that safety design is a failure. It serves no purpose to try and church it up. Sig, after some hesitation, took the high road and fixed the problem. Springfield recalled the XDS45 pistols for an update when it came to be known that those pistols had a risk of going cyclic when the trigger is pulled. Honor Guard’s manuafacturer’s ought to do the same. Instead, they issued a statement that their product’s safety is in the hands of the purchaser.

I would never buy a gun from a company that refuses to take appropriate action to rectify a known safety issue with their product.

[treadlightly]

So, it is really a problem of striker-fired pistols, in which the striker is kept under spring tension in its normal carry state. It is incumbent upon manufacturers of striker-fired pistols to incorporate a design feature which will keep the striker in check until the moment the trigger is pulled. If both the P320 and the Honor Guard had such a mechanism in place, and it routinely fails to keep the striker in check when struck fairly lightly on the back of the frame, then that safety design is a failure. It serves no purpose to try and church it up. Sig, after some hesitation, took the high road and fixed the problem.

I wish I knew what Sig was doing in their recall. I haven't sent mine back yet. I intend to, but I hope the fix isn't just lower mass trigger lever and higher trigger rebound spring rates.

The Sig (and probably the Honor Guard) problem is the striker is at full cock after a round is chambered. The ND comes from trigger motion. With the safeties all going inactive with trigger movement, the guns are discharging when struck or dropped for the same reason they go off deliberately. The trigger is moved back enough to release the sear.

I'm close to thinking a split trigger is the answer, but I can't say I'm comfortable betting body parts on a plastic lever exposed to holster lint.

[The Annoyed Man]

I certainly disagree that this is a problem with striker fired pistols only.

I’m not prejudiced against them. I carry striker fired pistols exclusively - Glocks - and none of others I own will fail the way this pistol did, because the manufacturers (S&W, and Springfield) have designed pistols that are safe to carry with tension on the striker.

My Springfield 1911A1 won’t fail like that, nor would have my old USP Compact, but my 1943 vintage 1911A1 just might. All three are hammer fired. All of my revolvers have a hammer block, so the pin can’t be struck if the hammer drops unintentionally - unless the trigger has been pulled. So, it is a potential problem with some hammer fired guns too, but it is my experience with the hammer fired guns that I own, the 1943 1911A1 excepted, that they won’t fail like that.