Can a trigger job be used against you?

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:03 pm

... if you had to use your pistol for self defense? I keep hearing arguments saying I should never get a trigger job on a carry pistol but I still think it's a myth.

Any thoughts?

fadlan12 · Post by **fadlan12** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:12 pm

It has been internet argued in many times. I was told this by my instructor. Has it ever been brought into a case by a prosecuter?

The other saying is never use reloads because these can also show intent to harm.

nitrogen · Post by **nitrogen** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:17 pm

How would a court even KNOW you had a trigger job?

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:17 pm

Yes, it could. A slightly lightened trigger was one of the pieces of evidence presented in the manslaughter trial of Luis Alvarez, a Miami police officer, after a 1982 shooting. Will it make a difference? Didn't seem to in his case...He was acquitted.

Edit: Is this a reason to *not* get a trigger job? Not in my opinion. If it comes down to needing to use my gun, I want it to work *real* good.

Fragger · Post by **Fragger** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:30 pm

I had my Mod 28 tuned and polished , trigger pull lightened and it really increased my speed and accuracey , cut my report time in 1/2!!! , I really don't see how the DA could make a case outta that..
Just about the same issue as Black Talons!!!
I guess a pretty slick attorney could make a pretty good arguement.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:32 pm

fadlan12 wrote:It has been internet argued in many times. I was told this by my instructor. Has it ever been brought into a case by a prosecuter?

The other saying is never use reloads because these can also show intent to harm.

People have also had their use of hollowpoints used against them. My bottom-line, I wouldn't worry about what a prosecutor *might* try to use. Most won't be unreasonable, and regardless, if I ever need to use my gun, I want it to work well, and I want to stop the bad guy.

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:00 am

fadlan12 wrote:It has been internet argued in many times. I was told this by my instructor. Has it ever been brought into a case by a prosecuter?

The other saying is never use reloads because these can also show intent to harm.

Mostly, these are issues for officer involved shootings where there is a deep pocket (the city's) involved. Theoretically, it shouldn't make any difference if it is a good shoot. But some lawyers, including DA's, will try anything.

Massad Ayoob has recounted numerous case files where trigger jobs, hollowpoints, etc. have been ATTEMPTED to be used in either civil or criminal actions involving "good" shoots.

Sometimes, the tactic has succeeded. But with the right expert witness testimony, these spurious legal attacks can be defeated.

One benefit of taking Ayoob's LFI-I course is that he will testify as an expert witness if needed AT NO CHARGE if he looks over your case and decides for himself that it represents a good shoot.

One of my carry guns, a 1911, has a 3.5 lb trigger job. Another, a SP101, is factory stock. But the action is so smooth that when Ayoob fired it, his first question was, "Who did the work on this one? It feels great."

I shot the LFI-I course with the SP101. Most everyone else had a 1911 or a SIG. I came in third. Ayoob had a great time ribbing the class that, "...here's this guy with a snubbie beating the pants off you all."

It was a good time.

My policy has always been that I will take reasonable action to protect myself and/or loved ones, if necessary, and that since my actions WILL BE reasonable, the gun, cartridge, etc. will be secondary.

I'm confident that on a good shoot the actions will speak for themselves. And if need be, Ayoob is available to help out.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:05 am

frankie_the_yankee wrote: My policy has always been that I will take reasonable action to protect myself and/or loved ones, if necessary, and that since my actions WILL BE reasonable, the gun, cartridge, etc. will be secondary.

I'm confident that on a good shoot the actions will speak for themselves. And if need be, Ayoob is available to help out.

100%.

Thane · Post by **Thane** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:54 am

I can think of one reason NOT to get a trigger job on a gun... a super-light trigger job, that is.

In a very tense situation, your adrenaline is going to be running at 105%, and you may well be "jittery." You do NOT want your pistol to "go off" due to shaky hands, but to fire when and only when you need it to.

Super light <1# trigger on your race 1911? Leave that gun at home and take your gun with the tougher trigger.

A 3.5# trigger isn't "hair-trigger-light," but it's about as light as I'd want on a carry piece, for my own peace of mind. My Springfield has a heavier trigger than that; I'm not sure how heavy, but I'm estimating 4.5-5 pounds at least. It's nice and crisp, though, with no creep - it'll hit what I'm aiming at, but not until I actually squeeze the trigger, instead of brushing it.

Legally, my only worry would be if the trigger was so light I was accidentally touching off rounds.

KD5NRH · Post by **KD5NRH** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:49 am

Xander wrote:Yes, it could. A slightly lightened trigger was one of the pieces of evidence presented in the manslaughter trial

Without looking up the details of that particular case, manslaughter would imply that he didn't intend to shoot that person; if I'm pointing a gun at someone, it will be because I feel that there is a compelling need to shoot that person and if I'm touching the trigger at all, it will only be because I am in the process of intentionally shooting at them.

IIRC, most, if not all of the cases I've seen in Ayoob's writings and in other places which involved light triggers or DA weapons used in SA mode were all tried as manslaughter because the shooter claimed that the gun went off unintentionally. At least some of them would have been justified (based on the facts presented in the articles) in using lethal force intentionally at the time.

gregthehand · Post by **gregthehand** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:34 am

If deadly force is authorized any which means can be used to bring that force to bear are authorized. That is a court ruling....

Post by **Charles L. Cotton** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:28 am

As KD5NRH said, if the shooting was justifiable, then the amount of pressure you put on the trigger to fire the shot isn't an issue. It's when the defendant says, "I didn't mean to shoot him," or "it went off accidentally" that numerous other factors come into play. One of those factors may be trigger pull-weight.

Chas.

propellerhead · Post by **propellerhead** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:18 am

Thanks everyone. That clears up the whole "trigger jobs on carry guns" issue.

para driver · Post by **para driver** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:38 am

so if you have a DA pistol with a 8-12 pound pull, then claiming 'accidental discharge' isn't an option??

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:46 am

para driver wrote:so if you have a DA pistol with a 8-12 pound pull, then claiming 'accidental discharge' isn't an option??

I'm sure it's still an option. I'm also sure it's not an option I'd want to use. This is why, as the saying goes: "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch." Then there are no problems with NDs. :-)

That said, I totally agree with Thane. I'd never want a trigger lighter than 3-1/2 or 4 lbs. on a carry gun. And if it was for someone who didn't shoot much, I wouldn't even want it to be that light.