Use of Force Scenario - updated w/ Part III

[Venus Pax]

Sounds like Mr. Officer had the situation under control, and with backup enroute.

I would get out of his way and let him do his job.

Sounds like good advice to me.

ETA: I would also be on the phone with my friendly neighborhood 911 dispatcher. :)

[CHL/LEO]

Wow I am surprised that the "friend" would push a uniformed police officer,

Welcome to the real world... you ought to come along on some domestic disturbance calls and see how the "victims" often times turn and attack LEOs for arresting the guys that just beat the heck out of them. I've been on crashes (we used to call them traffic accidents but the State of Texas recently ruled that they now have to be referred to as crashes) where one of the victims acts like the other person hit them on purpose and wants to fight.

[jwp]

Wow I am surprised that the "friend" would push a uniformed police officer....

The "friend" was himself an off-duty police officer. This incident happened here in Seguin two or three weeks ago.

[03Lightningrocks]

I had a scenario just about like this happen last night. I am a night owl and usually work out late at night. So last night at 11 PM I am about 30 minutes into panting and puffing on the elliptical walker when my cell phone rings. I see it's my daughter and go into adrenalin rush as I know she is not usually up that late. I answer the phone and hear her alarm system going nuts and her voice sounding panicked telling me to get over there as quick as I can that someone is downstairs in her house. I kept my cool long enough to make sure she has her hand gun ready to stop anyone that walks into her bedroom. She did and was positioned strategically. She has 911 on her home phone and the alarm company is already calling the cops. I throw my dress slacks and dress shirt on over my workout cloths and put my PM9 in my pocket...all as I head out the garage to my truck. Now I am flipping out about this time, so I drive at speeds approaching 110 MPH through the city streets and arrive at her place 10 miles away before the cops arrived. She is not answering her cell phone which almost causes me to crash through her front door like they do in the movies.(Now I am 5'11" tall and weigh 260 pounds so I can actually bust through most doors) I was so shook up I couldn't figure out which keys were for her house on my key ring and couldn't manage to work the spare garage door opener I have for emergencies. During all this panicking over issues I had never worked out in my head before, the issues I have played over and over again for the past 30 years concerning handgun usage, were automatic. They arrived on foot as they had parked down the street and were in the process of doing a tactical assault on the property...LOL. Nobody was leaving that area.


1)I have been an avid shooter/reloader/hunter for all my life and both my kids grew up well schooled in all three. So she is comfortable enough with hand guns that her first response was to retrieve gun from night stand and assume a defense posture behind cover but where she could also see the only entry point for an intruder. She called for help after getting set up. I can't tell you how many times I have made passing comments to her about what to do if someone breaks in. She has always responded in a way as to make me think she is not listening. Guess she heard me in spite of her cutesie comments... . It was automatic for her.
2)Knowing that the police would soon arrive, i did not want to be seen standing outside her house trying to knock the door down with a gun in my hand. So I kept it in my pocket.
4)Once the police arrived, I knew to immediately identify myself and remain still with my hands out in the open.
5)Once they arrived I knew to get the heck out of their way and let them do their job. My PM9 stayed in my pocket the whole time as it was not needed.

All worked out well. Turns out my daughters ferrets had knocked a water bottle off their cage and when it crashed to the ground it set off her glass break alarm.

I don't mean to high jack this thread with my story, but the point I was trying to make is that trying to do the cops job after they arrived can get real dangerous. The last thing they need to worry about when under the stress of dealing with possible violence is a "well meaning third party" getting in the way. It could get you shot in the confusion.

[DoubleJ]

you, uh, still waiting on your CHL?

[tarkus]

QUESTION: If you were the older male in this scenario (btw, it wasn't me), what would you, with all your self-defense knowledge and skills, be doing as "friend" is trying to advance on you and scuffles with the officer? Help the officer? Runaway? Unholster? Pull out your pepper spray, if you have it?

Call an ambulance for the crash victim who was on the motorcycle.

[dac1842]

I did not bother to read all the responses. If that was me and a LEO was present I would not do anything to pose a threat to him. I would provide cover if needed.

[03Lightningrocks]

you, uh, still waiting on your CHL?

Yep...if your talking to me.

[ELB]

OK, Time for Part III:

Srothstein gets partial credit for his answer. Congratulations.

The officer did in fact tase "friend," and "friend" dropped to the ground at "older male's" car door. I do not know if he was cuffed, but as far as the newspaper articles relate, "friend" was never charged with anything.

And seeing as JWP let the cat out of the bag (altho I was going to wrap this up on this post anyway); yes these were all cops except for the older male driver. This happened last December (2007) not a couple weeks ago. The motorcyclist was an off-duty police officer, and so was his "friend," both of them on the same department as the responding off-duty, uniformed officer. The officer didn't recognize the motorcyclist at first, but pretty quickly realized he was dealing with two police officer (motorcyclist and "friend"). The scuffles happened as described (in the newspaper), with the twist that both combatants recognized the other was a cop.

As I noted above, I have not read anything about "friend-the-cop" getting charged with anything. This all came to light back in late March when a the city conducted an investigation of the police chief and at least one other officer because of allegations they promoted a hostile work environment with foul language and sexual harrassment, and that the chief improperly favored some police officers and members of the public over others. One of the names that came out in the early reports of the investigation was "friend." The chief and another senior officer were suspended by the city manager (I think); the acting chief then suspended "friend," and later fired him. The suspended chief and the senior officer worked out a deal with the city to leave the department without a fight -- they are described as "retired" in the newspaper articles. BTW, "friend" had two years with the department -- I don't know if he had time with any other department before this.

Here is the unbelievable part -- I am flabbergasted by this. "Friend" appealed his dismissal -- and the city manager over-ruled the acting chief and hired the guy back. !! The manager said the acting chief "did not act unjustly," but there were mitigating circumstances, according to the newspaper: "friend" had been involved in a shooting about 30 days prior, and he was off-duty at the time. I am dumbfounded.

BTW, the officer on the motorcycle recovered from his injuries and is back on duty.

Here are links to the articles about this that should still be on line (the Gazette-Enterprise only keeps archives on line for the last 30 days).

http://seguingazette.com/story.lasso?ew ... 24780ceda3
http://seguingazette.com/story.lasso?ew ... 367363e34a

[DoubleJ]

you, uh, still waiting on your CHL?

Yep...if your talking to me.

then you don't have the CHL Badge yet, eh? just show that to the cops. they love it.



jk, btw.

[03Lightningrocks]

you, uh, still waiting on your CHL?

Yep...if your talking to me.

then you don't have the CHL Badge yet, eh? just show that to the cops. they love it.



jk, btw.

LOL...yeah, I bet that would have gone well. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. It is times like that I recall the adage, "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six".