Not allowed to use Reloads for CHL?

[extremist]

If the student failed the material presented in this additional 5 hours, would that be a basis for saying the student failed to complete the course and thus deny the certificate?

Since I am not an instructor, I don't have a copy of all of the rules that extremist has, but I have been told a couple of instructors that they have discretion whether or not to issue the certificate. IMO, any ethical instructor would issue the certificate.

I find that concept somewhat disturbing. The Texas CHL is described as a "shall issue" license which is supposed to remove the personal discretion of who gets a CHL from the process. All who meet the statutory requirements are to be issued the license. If the instructor has discretion to make a decision that keeps a fully-qualified individual from obtaining the license, then it is effectively not a shall-issue license. The decision about who passes the course should be based on uniform objective criteria and I believe that that is what the legislature intended when they created the system.

Instructors are told:

"Even if a student passes the proficiency course, an instructor may recommend disapproval if he believes that the student is not eligible for the license. The Department may use a recommendation for disapproval if it is determined that the recommendation was made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance of the evidence.

That's it. Obviously, the instructor cannot make that decision themself, it has to be concurred with and acted on by the Department. Do I have an example of what we are talking about? Nope. But has it ever been done? I've been told it has. Perhaps someone else can give an example.

Regards,
James

[dave_in_austin]

[

Instructors are told:

"Even if a student passes the proficiency course, an instructor may recommend disapproval if he believes that the student is not eligible for the license. The Department may use a recommendation for disapproval if it is determined that the recommendation was made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance of the evidence.

That's it. Obviously, the instructor cannot make that decision themself, it has to be concurred with and acted on by the Department. Do I have an example of what we are talking about? Nope. But has it ever been done? I've been told it has. Perhaps someone else can give an example.

Regards,
James

That makes a lot more sense as requires that there be an objective basis for the rejection. I would be a little more comfortable if the word "believes" were replaced with the phrase "has knowledge of evidence" as beliefs, by definition, are not necessarily rational.

[WildBill]

Instructors are told:

"Even if a student passes the proficiency course, an instructor may recommend disapproval if he believes that the student is not eligible for the license. The Department may use a recommendation for disapproval if it is determined that the recommendation was made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance of the evidence.

Perhaps someone else can give an example.

Regards,
James

GC §411.189. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY CERTIFICATE.

(c) A qualified handgun instructor may submit to the department a written recommendation for disapproval of the application for a license, renewal, or modification of a license, accompanied by an affidavit stating personal knowledge or naming persons with personal knowledge of facts that lead the instructor to believe that an applicant is not qualified for handgun proficiency certification. The department may use a written recommendation submitted under this subsection as the basis for denial of a license only if the department determines that the recommendation is made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance of the evidence. The department shall make a determination under this subsection not later than the 45th day after the date the department receives the written recommendation. The 60-day period in which the department must take action under Section 411.177(b) is extended one day for each day a determination is pending under this subsection.

I have an example - maybe a little farfetched, but an example. Let's say a guy comes in with his wife and both take the class and pass. After class the wife comes up to the instructor and confides in him that she is concerned about her husband being safe with a gun because he has been in a bad mood since he got out of rehab.

[WildBill]

I found this http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... chlaws.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GC §411.188.

HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT. (a) The director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and examinations to measure handgun proficiency. The course to teach handgun proficiency must contain training sessions divided into two parts. One part of the course must be classroom instruction and the other part must be range instruction and an actual demonstration by the applicant of the applicant's ability to safely and proficiently use the category of handgun for which the applicant seeks certification. An applicant may not be certified unless the applicant demonstrates, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a handgun of.32 caliber or above. The department shall distribute the standards, course requirements, and examinations on request to any qualified handgun instructor.

Q: What type of ammunition can I use during my training class?
A: Your certified instructor may select any safe ammunition for use in the training program, but most factory loads should be acceptable.

[G.C.Montgomery]

We were told we were not allowed to use re loads that we have to use purchased approved ammo for our shooting qualification. Does anyone know why? I have been practicing with our reloads and dont feel as confident shooting with factory ammo.

Thanks.

I am sure you have absolute faith in your reloads but, neither the range nor the instructor knows anything about your reloads. So with that I am going to say that liability is the most likely reason jumps out in my mind. A second issue is time management and I’ll explain that later.

As an instructor or range owner, I don't know anything about the quality of your reloads. Most ranges and instructors aren't interested in the risks come with letting Joe Blow and his reloads on to the range. Who do you think your fellow CHL classmate will attempt to sue if one of your loads blows up a gun and another student is injured by the resulting shrapnel? Even if I am not ultimately held liable, why would I even want to put myself through the hassle and expense of defending myself against the suit?

You mentioned you don’t feel as confident shooting factory ammo. This is a red flag to me as an instructor. Just about the only complaint I think is reasonable on this issue is cost…But I think even that is a stretch since we only ask you to fire 50-rounds. If your issue with shooting factory ammo is related to felt-recoil, I usually suggest that you either change to a “lighter” caliber with less recoil or seek additional training. “Ball” ammo is usually all that’s required for CHL qualification and this ammo is generally anemic in comparison to JHP meant for duty or self-defense.

Earlier I mentioned a time management issue…My first few months as a CHL instructor really opened my eyes to this and I’ll explain it here. Other than students who don’t know anything about their guns or those with poorly maintained guns, the next biggest problem I have on ranges is students with shoddy reloads that cause multiple malfunctions and therefore delays on the range. This is a problem because in most commercial settings, CHL instructors have ten-hours and ten-hours only to conduct their classes. Yes, legally we can push it to fifteen but, the commercial reality of running classes for a public range is your students and the range owners usually expect the class to start and end on time so time is precious. Ideally, it takes me thirty-minutes to complete a shooting proficiency relay with 5-10 students. With twenty or more students in any class, were talking about at least an hour of the day blown on nothing other than pulling triggers. With that in mind, anything that that makes the shooting proficiency run long means less time to cover required information in some other section of the class.

YMMV but those are my thoughts and observations as a student and CHL instructor. If your range or instructor doesn’t allow reloads, you can always find another instructor or facility. If your range or instructor lets you use reloads and you know your reloads run reliably in your gun, go for it. But I caution you that if your reloads are a crutch and you can’t shoot effectively with factory ammo, you have a problem that needs to be resolved before you start carrying a gun.

[WildBill]

As an instructor or range owner, I don't know anything about the quality of your reloads. Most ranges and instructors aren't interested in the risks come with letting Joe Blow and his reloads on to the range. Who do you think your fellow CHL classmate will attempt to sue if one of your loads blows up a gun and another student is injured by the resulting shrapnel? Even if I am not ultimately held liable, why would I even want to put myself through the hassle and expense of defending myself against the suit?

I never really thought about that aspect of it. It makes me wonder if any CHL instructors inspect the student's gun prior to shooting. I am sure someone has brought out some old rusty piece o'junk that used to belong to their great-grandfather.

[Greybeard]

' Been in class most of the day. Good to see other instructors here doing a bang-up job (pun intended ) of geting some points across.

Quote: "It makes me wonder if any CHL instructors inspect the student's gun prior to shooting."

At least In our initial school (13 years ago now), DPS emphacised doing so. There has been lots of turnover with DPS people (and CHL instructors) since then, so one of the instructors here may or may not have similar experience.

Dealing with "old rusty piece o'junk that used to belong to their great-grandfather" is why some instructors may mandate students use their "class" guns. Back to the old time management and/or liability issues ...

[onecoolpilot]

She's going to be using factory ammo for her range qualification. We went today so she could practice. I loaded 2 magazines for her and mixed up reloads and factory rounds in each. She couldn't tell the difference. There were a couple of stray shots, but nothing major. All rounds hit the paper, and that was using a 10" wide x 13" long bullseye target. I really don't think there's a problem with her shooting, she just likes the softer feel of the reloads.

I've tried telling her that if she land all rounds on a 10x13 sheet of paper, she'll have no problems passing the range qualification.

Thanks for all of you guy's input. She'll be doing the shooting tomorrow night.

[G.C.Montgomery]

As an instructor or range owner, I don't know anything about the quality of your reloads. Most ranges and instructors aren't interested in the risks come with letting Joe Blow and his reloads on to the range. Who do you think your fellow CHL classmate will attempt to sue if one of your loads blows up a gun and another student is injured by the resulting shrapnel? Even if I am not ultimately held liable, why would I even want to put myself through the hassle and expense of defending myself against the suit?

I never really thought about that aspect of it. It makes me wonder if any CHL instructors inspect the student's gun prior to shooting. I am sure someone has brought out some old rusty piece o'junk that used to belong to their great-grandfather.

Not every instructor does it but as a result of some hard lessons learned, I do perform a basic mechanical inspection of my students' firearms at the firing-line. I have indeed had some boat anchors show up for class and had to ask the student to either use a different gun or rent one from the range. The fun ones are the guys who bring $3000 custom 1911s and still experience stoppages that hold up the class.

[Xander]

It makes me wonder if any CHL instructors inspect the student's gun prior to shooting. I am sure someone has brought out some old rusty piece o'junk that used to belong to their great-grandfather.

I don't know if it's a regular practice for most instructors, but mine did. It was at an indoor range, and he went to each lane and had us set our guns down and inspected each one before we started the proficiency test.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "The fun ones are the guys who bring $3000 custom 1911s and still experience stoppages that hold up the class."

Yep, we had some of those types at the original DPS instructor renewal school. And it made Sgt. Dan Walker such an unhappy camper, I bet those guys did not do that again - if they even came back again.

[FightinAggieCHL]

I don't know if the question was resolved earlier, but I think I can elaborate on the Instructor Recommendation for licensing issue.

When I was taking my class, there was a guy who 1) tried to load the ammo backwards into the magazine, 2) clanged the bottom of the steel target at 15 feet while we were shooting (the metal was shielding the turning target mechanism 3 feet below paper), 3) asked if it would be ok to shoot someone taking a weed-eater out of his garage at night, and 4) did poorly enough on the exam that he was concerned if he passed it (he did, by a margin of about 4 points).

Based on these issues, and on his responses in the class, etc etc. I would imagine that the instructor could opt to not recommend the student for a CHL. At least, that's what I thought the whole 10 hours was supposed to do. I thought it was to offer a chance to the instructors to evaluate each of the applicants to ensure that they could handle a weapon, and they were competent enough to engage in discussion rationally about the different scenarios they encountered in class.

[WildBill]

I don't know if the question was resolved earlier, but I think I can elaborate on the Instructor Recommendation for licensing issue.

When I was taking my class, there was a guy who 1) tried to load the ammo backwards into the magazine, 2) clanged the bottom of the steel target at 15 feet while we were shooting (the metal was shielding the turning target mechanism 3 feet below paper)

I would think the instructor would not let the student finish the range qualification if he didn't think the situation was safe. If he let the student finish and he passed, then he would get his certificate.

As far as the written test, if he's four points above failing then he passed. That's why there is a minimum score. Getting questions about "weed eaters in the garage" is the reason instructors are required teach the laws about using deadly force. There are always students asking questions that the answers are obvious to others. There are always students making strange comments or telling bizarre stories.

If people were denied their CHL for these type of reasons, as dave_in_austin stated, Texas wouldn't be a "shall issue" state.

[G.C.Montgomery]

I don't know if the question was resolved earlier, but I think I can elaborate on the Instructor Recommendation for licensing issue.

When I was taking my class, there was a guy who 1) tried to load the ammo backwards into the magazine, 2) clanged the bottom of the steel target at 15 feet while we were shooting (the metal was shielding the turning target mechanism 3 feet below paper)

I would think the instructor would not let the student finish the range qualification if he didn't think the situation was safe. If he let the student finish and he passed, then he would get his certificate.

As far as the written test, if he's four points above failing then he passed. That's why there is a minimum score. Getting questions about "weed eaters in the garage" is the reason instructors are required teach the laws about using deadly force. There are always students asking questions that the answers are obvious to others. There are always students making strange comments or telling bizarre stories.

If people were denied their CHL for these type of reasons, as dave_in_austin stated, Texas wouldn't be a "shall issue" state.

You may not believe it but during my first CHL Instructor class, a prospective instructor asked if it was OK to shoot someone who wouldn't leave your fishing hole!!!!! It get's better...I had to take three of my classmates to the range the day before we qualified for a full on, basic handgun class. My wife had a broader firearms knowledge base than any of those three "instructors" at the time. And somewhere on here you'll find my account of the most recent Instructor Renewal class. Personally, I am investing in rigid body-armor for my future visits to DPS.

[DoubleActionCHL]

Not necessarily. The instructors could teach other subjects during the classroom portion but the DPS written proficiency test given at the end of the class is the measuring stick. That is if you pass the written test, and have participated in the 10 hours of instruction that go along with it you are done.

Let me be more clear. The instructor can set his class to be 15 hours if he wants. During the additional 5 hours he can teach anything he wants, such as handgun maintenance or safety. In addition to the DPS test, he could make up one of his own. That still meets the DPS requirements.

Sure, he can make up a test of his own in addition to the DPS test. However, this 'made up' test is meaningless and can have no bearing on whether or not the student qualifies for his CHL. The criteria and requirements are clear. We can add material, but cannot change the criteria for passing. What we can do is send a letter to DPS informing them of our impression of a particular student if he/she technically passed the test, but we felt he/she wasn't quite up to snuff.

And regarding the use of hand loads and reloads, DPS doesn't define this for instructors (although they don't allow them for instructor testing). It is the call of the instructor or range for safety and consistency. As an instructor, I'm somewhat responsible for your safety when we're out there on the range. I'll do what I have to do to ensure the proficiency test is safe and problem free. I ask that my students do not use reloads or hand loads. They can bring their own factory ammo, or purchase it at the range. I don't make a penny on it one way or the other.