In Border States, BATFE Asks: "May We See Your Guns?"

[Rockrz]

In this case it appears they did some research, and went fishing...

Makes ya wonder specifically how they knew these people were NRA members?

[flb_78]

By the stickers in the back windows on their vehicles?

[Rockrz]

I'm guessing NASCAR, and Copenhagen decals would tip 'em off as well

[pbwalker]

I'm just going to buy a doormat...

http://www.target.com/Come-Back-Warrant ... B00020O572

[jlangton]

I'm just going to buy a doormat...

http://www.target.com/Come-Back-Warrant ... B00020O572

I like it...
JL

[USA1]

love it

[Abraham]

I wonder how often the warrant demanding homeowner is told -"we don't need one" and the BATFE charge right in anyway, more than a little annoyed?

Or - They agree to leave to get the warrant, return later and then really trash your home...

Bluster sounds appealing, but I have to question how sound a response demanding a warrant can be. Maybe it's a good one. I don't really know.

Will the BATFE will simply shrug their shoulders in defeat, never to return? Is this probable?

Would it be wiser to demand a warrant (if that's the route you take) and then promptly get on the phone to a lawyer - cuz you're REALLY gonna need one, even though you've done nothing wrong, but fighting for your rights really steams the BATFE.

Anyone actually know if it might be wiser to simply let them see you're not a criminal by cooperating, though it galls you?

[Rockrz]

To answer your question...lots of Germans cooperated with
Hitler in the beginning and we know how that turned out.

[srothstein]

Anyone actually know if it might be wiser to simply let them see you're not a criminal by cooperating, though it galls you?

The difference between tactics and strategy is that tactics are how you handle a specific battle and strategy is how you handle a war.

If you consider our fight for our rights like a war, you will quickly see your answer. Tactically, it is almost always better to cooperate with a police officer. Strategically, it is never better.

[RiverRat]

Found this. Don't know the source, but clear advice.

http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm

GOF: When The BATF Pays A Visit
James H. Jeffries, III
"There is no wholly satisfactory substitute for brains, but silence does pretty well." --Anonymous
PROBABLY one of the least favorite events for any Federal Firearms Licensee (hereafter "FFL") is a visit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (hereafter "BATF"). This can occur in one of at least six very different ways and your legal rights and recommended responses vary accordingly.

For purposes of the following discussion I will assume that you are a law-abiding licensed dealer or collector who tries to comply honestly with the federal firearms laws. If some of the discussion below seems excessively cautious, or even hostile to BATF, it is based on real world experience with an agency which has been found by Congress, by various federal judges and juries, by other federal and local law enforcement agencies, and even by some Presidents to be inept, indifferent to citizens' rights, and capable of the most outrageous abuses of the law.

BATF operates under the rationale of requiring you to comply with the law. I operate under the rationale of requiring BATF to comply with the law. I required this of BATF as a federal prosecutor for almost 30 years, and I require it as a private citizen and as a lawyer. You should require it as an FFL.

A non-licensee has no legal duty whatsoever to talk to or otherwise cooperate with a BATF agent (or any other governmental official). It is a sad commentary on our times and the state of our federal government (and especially BATF) that the appropriate legal advice from a defense lawyer to a non-licensee confronted by a federal or state law enforcement officer can be capsulized in a single sentence called RULE ONE: Silence is golden; or what part of "no" don't you understand? If you are an FFL, however, additional considerations come into play.

The Tracing Center Inquiry.
Most active dealers have had a telephone call from BATF's Tracing Center at some time or other inquiring about the disposition of a firearm whose serial number traces to the dealer. This is usually an inquiry concerning a third party and does not implicate the dealer. It should normally occur during your listed business hours, although emergency traces in high-profile matters could occur at any time of the day or night. These inquiries are authorized by law in official criminal investigations and as a licensee you have a statutory duty to cooperate by furnishing the requested information.

Be aware, however, that the Tracing Center is a part of BATF's criminal enforcement apparatus whose function (and principal interest) is to put people (including firearms dealers) in jail. You should always obtain the full name and telephone number of the caller and note it in writing. An entry in your bound book alongside the entry for the firearm involved would not be inappropriate. If in doubt about the caller's identity, you should terminate the call and call back before giving any information. Cooperation would include supplying copies of any related documents. Never surrender an original document or legally-possessed firearm (or other property for that matter) except in response to a summons, subpoena, or court order, and then only after obtaining legal advice.

When faced with the prospect of providing information to the government, keep in mind that there are only two legal options: silence or complete truthfulness. Lying (even by partial truths or literal but misleading true answers) is never an option. A false statement to a federal officer in his official capacity is a felony akin to perjury, and usually much easier to prosecute and prove than the matter being investigated. If you cannot speak truthfully without incriminating yourself or injuring your legal interests, then remember RULE ONE.

If the inquiry is about a Title II firearm, you should attempt to determine if the trace was initiated by local law enforcement. If it was, you should remind the caller that the information requested is privileged tax information and that it is a federal felony for BATF to disclose the information outside the agency. Your interest in this aspect is that you do not wish to aid and abet the commission of a felony -- even one committed by a federal official..............

partial article.....in context.

[Rockrz]

Maybe it's better to buy FTF and pay cash anytime you go to a gun store / range.

I know it's not totally foolproof, but it's better than automatically ending
up on some list for the ATF to come visit you.

[RiverRat]

Dumb question time:

I was told no data bases of gun purchases exists by the Feds longer than thirty days, except for the specific dealer records kept on file at the dealer. Obviously, a data base of firearms purchases is illegally being kept by these folks somewhere. What is the truth here? Are they keeping a data base? Is it legal? Is this a case of Federal law operating outside the law again?

[Mithras61]

Dumb question time:

I was told no data bases of gun purchases exists by the Feds longer than thirty days, except for the specific dealer records kept on file at the dealer. Obviously, a data base of firearms purchases is illegally being kept by these folks somewhere. What is the truth here? Are they keeping a data base? Is it legal? Is this a case of Federal law operating outside the law again?

I suspect that there is no database, but rather there is a data heap. The difference being (as I understand it, and understanding that I am not a DB person) that a database is structured, tabular data with an index, whereas a heap is not. If you're interested, there's more in Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heap_(data_structure). A heap or a subset of data in a heap can be turned into a database fairly quickly if desired, but it isn't presently illegal for the Feds to store data in a heap where it is for them to store it in a database (this, btw, is how they sidestep some of the FISA wire tapping requirements).

[G.A. Heath]

um, actually with the e4473 and electronic "bound book" software that is now available it won't take much to create a national database as more and more dealers move to this newer system. AFAIK there is the BATFE's own e4473 package and there is Coloseum Software's package. A requirement for the bound book software is that it be able to save data into a text file that can be turned over to the BATFE when the dealer goes out of business (akin to turning in the paper version but much easier to create databases with).

[RiverRat]

Guess it's sad. Why wouldn't they be chasing the criminals that did the illegal purchases and sold them across the border based on the serial nos that they have from the recovered weapons, rather than chasing citizens with purchases tied to no illegal activities. What a waste of (our tax money) resources!