Another CHL incident

[Grog]

It would have been funny as hell if the thugs went after the good guy after he was disarmed and he drew a back up gun and shot another one.

[baraco01]

It would have been funny as heck if the thugs went after the good guy after he was disarmed and he drew a back up gun and shot another one.

Now that is a CLASSIC

[G.A. Heath]

The articles don't mention if the licensee attempted to deescalate the situation or not. They also don't mention if he tried to flee prior to shooting the suspect. If the licensee failed to attempt one or the other then the fire fighter might be justified in thinking the licensee was the aggressor. Now here's where the situation gets worse. The fire fighter involved himself in an active shooter situation in a manner that could have resulted in additional people being injured or killed as a result of his actions. In Texas if you have four people involved in a crime you have a potential "Organized Criminal Activity" charge, so the people charged with that may not actually be gang members.

Here's the key problems I see:
The Licensee did not know how the other patrons would react to his actions, or if there were other armed persons in the location.
The fire fighter made made some assumptions that could have resulted in worsening the situation based on incomplete information.
The other patrons (who may be, or may not be, gang members) went vigilante and chased off the licensee rather than wait for Law enforcement.

How things could have gotten worse.
Things could have gone down hill quickly if you replaced the licensee with an "armed off duty police officer", the firefighters actions would only have worsened the situation. If you replaced the fire fighter with "CHL holder" or "Police Officer" then you could also have made the situation much worse, possibly resulting in injury or death to one of the actors or witnesses. Had the Licensee drawn a second (backup) weapon to deal with the crowd that chased him off then the odds are that he would have been shot with his own weapon that the fire fighter had taken.

[Beiruty]

Lack of information to formulate what happened.
I say if the shooter lost control of his gun, then indicates that the shooter is either overpowered in a struggle or very novice and could not handle the A.Dump.

[stevie_d_64]

I applaud the person who brought up the conflict resolution aspect of this because I believe it applies in most, if not all negative encounters you or I may be involved with in our lifetime...

No offense intended, but I want to state a prevalent condition that I have seen many times before that there is an high probablity of unreasonable behavior that is more volatile when firearms are in the mix...This is also not a reason to NOT carry for lawful self defensive purposes either...

But there is a prevalent male "machismo" that is difficult to suppress sometimes in some people...And it is a difficult issue to suppress in a conflict resolution situation...

What started with a fork, quickly escalated to a knife, and then a gun was produced...

Like I have said for years, this is a case study where each and every one of us should insert ourselves into this situation, based upon what we know, not what is speculated, and run it through in your mind, what and how you would resolve this situation, and without having to clear leather and take a life...

We should learn more about how to NOT get into situations like this, but know that sometimes you just cannot be insulated enough...But that should not keep you from doing what you should be free to do anyway...

I try to find a way where everyone wins in situations like this...But that unfortunately is up to the other person(s) ability to realize the futility of continuing the conflict and escalating it themselves...

Always remember, we who carry a firearm for lawful self defensive purposes absolutely ALWAYS have the ability to end any imminent and deadly, threatening situation, with absolute finality...A revelation that should humble even the most stalwart advocate of Second Amendment rights...

[RPB]

Just guessing ...

Perhaps the "Firefighter" was an "Investigator"
http://www.ci.el-paso.tx.us/fire/fire_investigation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

El Paso:
Fire/ Arson Investigators

All Investigators are certified Peace Officers within the State of Texas as per the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education. All Investigators must also be certified Fire Inspectors and certified Fire Investigators as per the Texas Commission on Fire Protection.

(So, Arson Investigators ARE certified peace officers)

Doesn't say if this firefighter was an Investigator or Marshall though.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_15989276? ... otimes.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An off-duty firefighter, who was eating at the restaurant, jumped into the middle of the dispute and grabbed the shooter's weapon, police said.

[Purplehood]

Goes to show... if other people don't even notice what is going on right under their noses, and finally look up and pay attention to the "guy with a gun" while stuffing tacos down their throats, things could get ugly for even the most law-abiding, well-intentioned of CHL holders.

The Fireman may have thought that the CHL holder was the BG, or a nutcase (depending on how things were going down).

I have wondered about being so quick on the draw that other customers might think that you started the whole situation.

[seamusTX]

Why d'y'all keep wanting to imagine legal justifications?

Stuff just happens. People do what they are going to do either on impulse or because they used their best judgment without consulting a lawyer.

- Jim

[RPB]

Why d'y'all keep wanting to imagine legal justifications?

Stuff just happens. People do what they are going to do either on impulse or because they used their best judgment without consulting a lawyer.

- Jim

True

I gotta get me one o' them CHL sash thingies

[seamusTX]

So you will look like a complete idiot in your mug shot?

Remember, this kind of record is not erasable now; and if it is funny enough it will end up on The Smoking Gun. I particularly enjoy their tattoo addicts and the women who look like they are posing for Vogue when they are busted for DWI or PCS.

- Jim

[Jumping Frog]

How did an unarmed firefighter disarm an armed man?

Not enough information to really know, but here is one scenario: The Fire Marshall shows him his badge and says, "Give me the gun".

Any one of us would give up our gun after a shooting to an LEO demanding we do so.

[tacticool]

According to the stories, the thugs had already assaulted at least one victim before they assaulted the CHL.

I wonder why the fireman didn't get involved earlier. Related? http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_16001628" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[baraco01]

According to the stories, the thugs had already assaulted at least one victim before they assaulted the CHL.

I wonder why the fireman didn't get involved earlier. Related? http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_16001628" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

coz he was scared so he waited for someone to take 1 of the BG's out
and oh, that link that you have is about another incident...

[VoiceofReason]

The articles don't mention if the licensee attempted to deescalate the situation or not. They also don't mention if he tried to flee prior to shooting the suspect. If the licensee failed to attempt one or the other then the fire fighter might be justified in thinking the licensee was the aggressor. Now here's where the situation gets worse. The fire fighter involved himself in an active shooter situation in a manner that could have resulted in additional people being injured or killed as a result of his actions. In Texas if you have four people involved in a crime you have a potential "Organized Criminal Activity" charge, so the people charged with that may not actually be gang members.

Here's the key problems I see:
The Licensee did not know how the other patrons would react to his actions, or if there were other armed persons in the location.
The fire fighter made made some assumptions that could have resulted in worsening the situation based on incomplete information.
The other patrons (who may be, or may not be, gang members) went vigilante and chased off the licensee rather than wait for Law enforcement.

How things could have gotten worse.
Things could have gone down hill quickly if you replaced the licensee with an "armed off duty police officer", the firefighters actions would only have worsened the situation. If you replaced the fire fighter with "CHL holder" or "Police Officer" then you could also have made the situation much worse, possibly resulting in injury or death to one of the actors or witnesses. Had the Licensee drawn a second (backup) weapon to deal with the crowd that chased him off then the odds are that he would have been shot with his own weapon that the fire fighter had taken.

In Texas you are not required to flee. You can “stand your ground”. If you are facing a man with a knife it is probably too late to attempt to “deescalate” the situation. If a man with a knife in his hand is within arms reach of you or even one pace of arms length of you, he can cut your throat before you can get your gun out.

As has been pointed out we may not know all the facts but any way you look at it the fireman, fire marshal or “investigator” had no business jumping in and taking the CHL holder’s gun unless he was able and prepared to defend the CHL holder and others in the restaurant.

As I have stated, in a situation like this if it was a justified shooting and the fireman tried to take my gun, he would have been shot too. In a situation like this, if I believe the threat has ended, I will holster my gun but nobody will disarm me except a uniformed law enforcement officer. Plain clothes will not get it. Badges are easy to get. Anyone can buy one. Even I have one but it doesn’t mean I am still a LEO.

I edited this to say that I would feel very bad about shooting the firefighter but I would do what I had to do at the time to protect my wife and myself.

[jester]

It's also difficult to escape if you're sitting in a booth at a restaurant and an armed gang member blocks you in.