NYPD Admits It Can't Train Officers in Gun Safety...

[srothstein]

OK, now lets take a slightly more realistic look at the question. We are all agreed that a police officer needs to be competent with his weapon. So, could anyone define exactly what is the level of competence we should reasonable expect? What qualification course do we use and what is the minimum score to pass? What is the standard for negligent discharges per officer allowed? One per year, one per decade, terminated for the first one?

And be realistic in your answers, someone may make it apply to you also.

Since the comparison to doctors was made, I will point out that we let them make some mistakes and keep working also. Some of their mistakes are also fatal.

I have to say that I don't agree with New York's answer to the problem, but can we really put them down for taking some action to try to stop a potential problem. They, like most businesses and all governments should, looked at the cost of more training versus the cost of changing the weapons and took the less expensive answer. Since they are spending taxpayer money, they should get some credit for minimizing the cost.

[Heartland Patriot]

...it does come down to the man with his finger on the trigger...always...

I'm sorry...I know I'm not an LEO...I'm not a combat-MOS soldier, Marine, sailor or airman...I'm not a competition shooter...but I have had it pounded into me that the finger doesn't go onto the trigger until you are ready to pull the trigger...yes, I have read about things like inter-limb response and know that adrenaline can make people do funny things and have been under enough stress to know that small things can get overlooked...but isn't that just more of a reason to train folks to not put their "booger hooker on the bang switch" until they are ready to put rounds on target? Just asking the question, always willing to learn...

[Dave2]

OK, now lets take a slightly more realistic look at the question. We are all agreed that a police officer needs to be competent with his weapon. So, could anyone define exactly what is the level of competence we should reasonable expect? What qualification course do we use and what is the minimum score to pass? What is the standard for negligent discharges per officer allowed? One per year, one per decade, terminated for the first one?

And be realistic in your answers, someone may make it apply to you also.

Once every three months you get three tries to score 90+% on the CHL test. (Though I'd like to see a 25yd and maybe 50yd section added to that.)

[ELB]

Since the main thrust of the article I linked (and the reason I brought it up) was the NYPD's response to NDs with the Kahr pistol, I am going to (mostly) address the ND-related parts...

... What is the standard for negligent discharges per officer allowed? One per year, one per decade, terminated for the first one?

Wouldn't the standard be "none," which is what I suppose it to be now? "Allowing" ND is kind of like "allowing" running of stop signs or murder. There is no question of allowing a bad practice, the question is really what do when the standard is broken, which is what we have (I hope) now.

Did it occur on while training a recruit on the range with his first pistol and without breaking the other three rules, he just touched it off early? Or is this the third time in training he did this? Did a SWAT guy do it during live-fire exercise in a shoot-house? Or did an officer accidently put one through the wall while cleaning his gun away at home and hit somebody in the back of the head? Probably different responses are appropriate.

Since the comparison to doctors was made, I will point out that we let them make some mistakes and keep working also. Some of their mistakes are also fatal.

I will note that doctors do not have qualified immunity, and also pay malpractice insurance premiums to help pay for their mistakes.

I have to say that I don't agree with New York's answer to the problem, but can we really put them down for taking some action to try to stop a potential problem.

Well, yes I think we can, if the action they are taking is nonsense.

The "problem" they are "fixing" is a dozen+ NDs with Kahr-9s over "the last few years" (Kahrs in use since 1997) which they incorrectly attribute to the fact that the Kahr doesn't have a 13 lb trigger. Reading near the end of the article, we note that in 2010, in a single year, they had 21 NDs, of which six were during confrontations (presumably the rest were during low-stress administrative handling). In 2009, there were 23 NDs, only eight of which were in confrontations.

That's 30 administrative NDs, probably double the total number of Kahr boo-boos, in far less than the same time frame. Even if all the Kahr NDs happened in the last two years, there are still more NDs with other weapons. Presumably then the majority of these were with their 12 lb trigger Glocks. Ergo, the weight of the trigger is not really the problem with the Kahr pistol -- the problem is cops pulling the trigger when they shouldn't. Taking away their Kahr pistols is not going to fix this.

Taking away ALL their guns might, tho... Mayor Nanny Bloomer ought to be for that!

[Heartland Patriot]

OK, now lets take a slightly more realistic look at the question. We are all agreed that a police officer needs to be competent with his weapon. So, could anyone define exactly what is the level of competence we should reasonable expect? What qualification course do we use and what is the minimum score to pass? What is the standard for negligent discharges per officer allowed? One per year, one per decade, terminated for the first one?

And be realistic in your answers, someone may make it apply to you also.

Once every three months you get three tries to score 90+% on the CHL test. (Though I'd like to see a 25yd and maybe 50yd section added to that.)

CHLers are NOT expected to pursue and "take down" bad guys. The CHL is for DEFENSE only...if some want to make it more than that, they can go ahead and do so. I will not...law enforcement needs a much greater range of skills and proficiency, in my opinion.

[OldCannon]

The "problem" they are "fixing" is a dozen+ NDs with Kahr-9s over "the last few years" (Kahrs in use since 1997) which they incorrectly attribute to the fact that the Kahr doesn't have a 13 lb trigger. Reading near the end of the article, we note that in 2010, in a single year, they had 21 NDs, of which six were during confrontations (presumably the rest were during low-stress administrative handling). In 2009, there were 23 NDs, only eight of which were in confrontations.

That's 30 administrative NDs, probably double the total number of Kahr boo-boos, in far less than the same time frame. Even if all the Kahr NDs happened in the last two years, there are still more NDs with other weapons. Presumably then the majority of these were with their 12 lb trigger Glocks. Ergo, the weight of the trigger is not really the problem with the Kahr pistol -- the problem is cops pulling the trigger when they shouldn't. Taking away their Kahr pistols is not going to fix this.

Taking away ALL their guns might, tho... Mayor Nanny Bloomer ought to be for that!

Probably one too many "Desk Pop"s.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=wWZTTtE5_zQ[/youtube]

[speedsix]

...LEOs should be able to shoot in 90% group...that's not unreasonable to ask...no excuse for the city not qualifying them annually...they put Christmas decorations on Main Street...they have money to train our officers...

...ND...restricted duty and range detail...and safety re-training paid for out of pocket before back on the street...

...ND with injury to anyone...review board with a view towards dismissal...we can't give a pass to someone entrusted with deadly force any more than you or I would get one...but a hearing...that's fair...there MIGHT be circumstances...I don't know any right now...

...the world's full of zero-tolerance situations/jobs/responsibilities...being an LEO ought to be one...we expect more from them...and being professlonals, they can give it...and most DO...good cops don't show off, play with guns...threaten unnecessarily, the majority go a whole career without popping a cap on anyone...there's no room for carelessness or laziness when we and their fellow officers depend on them...

[wharvey]

...LEOs should be able to shoot in 90% group...that's not unreasonable to ask...no excuse for the city not qualifying them annually...they put Christmas decorations on Main Street...they have money to train our officers...

...ND...restricted duty and range detail...and safety re-training paid for out of pocket before back on the street...

...ND with injury to anyone...review board with a view towards dismissal...we can't give a pass to someone entrusted with deadly force any more than you or I would get one...but a hearing...that's fair...there MIGHT be circumstances...I don't know any right now...

...the world's full of zero-tolerance situations/jobs/responsibilities...being an LEO ought to be one...we expect more from them...and being professlonals, they can give it...and most DO...good cops don't show off, play with guns...threaten unnecessarily, the majority go a whole career without popping a cap on anyone...there's no room for carelessness or laziness when we and their fellow officers depend on them...

I completely agree with the above. A ND is likely to happen to anyone, the more guns are used and handled the more complacent on becomes. In fact I think there was a thread on this forum or another about this very topic. The consequences need to be dictated by the results of the ND. An accidental bullet hole in a wall or ceiling is one thing. Remedial training is definitely called far. Some one gets hurt then more extensive training, suspension - (unpaid), then a probationary period at minimum with possible dismissal depending on the situation. Dismissal certain for a 2nd offense.

What bothers me is the general notion by many that is that police should be the only ones to handle guns due to there superior training over us peon citizens. Police almost certainly are better trained in dealing wit various situations but as to proficiency with guns I don't think that is the case. Yes Virginia, there are many cops out there who are masters in the art of guns but true be know I suspect that almost all of them get training and practice far beyond what is provided by their departments.

[Dave2]

OK, now lets take a slightly more realistic look at the question. We are all agreed that a police officer needs to be competent with his weapon. So, could anyone define exactly what is the level of competence we should reasonable expect? What qualification course do we use and what is the minimum score to pass? What is the standard for negligent discharges per officer allowed? One per year, one per decade, terminated for the first one?

And be realistic in your answers, someone may make it apply to you also.

Once every three months you get three tries to score 90+% on the CHL test. (Though I'd like to see a 25yd and maybe 50yd section added to that.)

CHLers are NOT expected to pursue and "take down" bad guys. The CHL is for DEFENSE only...if some want to make it more than that, they can go ahead and do so. I will not...law enforcement needs a much greater range of skills and proficiency, in my opinion.

Wait... what? I didn't realize I was making something.

[E.Marquez]

A ND is likely to happen to anyone

Can not disagree with that, self justifying and absence of understanding more completely.

ND's are NOT likely to happen to anyone.. Period, never, No sir. It takes an improper action, a decision to place our self in a position to have that improper action happen, and it will never be "likely to happen to anyone."


No More than driving drunk is " likely to happen to anyone" and if that pisses off someon off in that you justified your DUI as "it can happen to anyone" Your wrong...It happened to you because of an improper action, a decision to place our self in a position to have that improper action happen, and it will never be "likely to happen to anyone." Just like an ND.

ND's happen ONLY to those that cause them to, Millions of gun owners, and millions more gun users handle, fire, clear, reload, clean a firearm without having an ND.. ..


The

A ND is likely to happen to anyone

is a post excuse those that have had an ND use.. Or for those that simply do not have the training and experience to understand ND's do not ever "just happen" they are an action to a chain of events and poor decisions. Period.


All that said, some ND's happen though non malicious ignorance, and some happen though willful improper actions.

Blaming a trigger pull for an ND is no different then a beer in the fridge for DUI, a part of the male anatomy that travels with you everyplace for rape, or guns for firearms related murder.

[C-dub]

If our issue is with NDs then why are we concerned with their marksmanship?

Maybe some kind of IDPA or IPSC (?) settup with a time limit to add stress. Throw in some background noise or radio chatter and see what happens.

[Jumping Frog]

Maybe some kind of IDPA or IPSC (?) settup

Note for the record that both sports heavily penalize unsafe gun handling, and it doesn't take too many problems to get DQ'd altogether.

[OldCannon]

CHLers are NOT expected to pursue and "take down" bad guys. The CHL is for DEFENSE only...if some want to make it more than that, they can go ahead and do so. I will not...law enforcement needs a much greater range of skills and proficiency, in my opinion.

Wait... what? I didn't realize I was making something.

I think Dave misunderstood your post. You weren't referring to CHL citizens, you were referring to police taking and passing the CHL test.

And I think the CHL test is a good generalized test for police officers. One thing that doesn't seem to be considered is that a police officer _rarely_ has to fire their gun during the course of their duties in their career, and many never do. We want police officers to improve, but I'd rather see more training in first-responder first-aid, community engagement, and knowledge of laws.

Perhaps I'm an odd one, but I see the increasing "militarization" of the police force as an undesirable thing.

[speedsix]

...that last sentence may become the most understated understatement of the decade...