Gun Range question...

[txinvestigator]

If I run a gunshop I would want my customers and employees handling loaded guns in the storefront as seldom as possible. If one one understands the intent, the signs are not unreasonable.

BINGO.

As a person who has worked at a range, I can't tell you how many "unloaded" guns customers whipped out for whatever reason, and how many I ticked off when I demanded they immediately PUT IT DOWN, and how many were thoroughly embarrassed when I removed a round from the chamber.

No one is afraid a CHLer will go crazy and attack them. They are afraid one of you will "know" your gun is unloaded, then accidentally shoot someone with that unloaded gun.

The majority of the CHL people here ARE smart and safety conscience. But many in general are not. The majority of people attending renewal classes have not shot since their last qualification.

If you go to a gun shop (no range) and there is no 30.06 sign posted but a "no loaded guns" sign is, then carry away as long as you don't intend to access your carry gun for something. If, for example, you are looking for a new holster for you Carry piece and you know you will want to try the fit, then unload before you enter. THAT is what the owner wants.

If it is a gun range and you intend to shoot with your carry piece: if a "no loaded guns" sign is posted but no 30.06, then carry away. If you intend to shoot with your carry piece, then keep it holstered until ON THE LINE, and maintain all safety rules.

As far as the comment about "The only significant risk [to gun shop employees] that I am aware of is that of getting robbed". A gun shop must comply with a myriad of federal, state and local laws simply to stay in business. Unless he is a CHL instructor he has no reason to know the CHL laws significantly well.

This place (CHL forums) has probably the best educated CHL holders. That said, I often see people post of mistake the law.

Sometimes people just look for reasons to be "offended".

[frankie_the_yankee]

If I run a gunshop I would want my customers and employees handling loaded guns in the storefront as seldom as possible. If one one understands the intent, the signs are not unreasonable.

Of course. But who said anything about "handling" loaded guns?

Not me, that's for sure.

If there was a sign saying "No handling of loaded guns", I wouldn't have any problem with it.

But that's not what the signs say. They say, "no loaded guns". My carry piece is a "loaded gun". So unless I'm supposed to be some kind of a mind reader, how am I supposed to know that the sign is not meant to apply to me? Forget for the moment that I might NOT CARE. How am I supposed to KNOW?

Forget the 30.06 angle. Obviously, such signs are non-compliant, so no trespass is committed should a CHL holder carry on the premesis. That's not the issue.

And a gun shop owner doesn't have to be a lawyer to know that SOME of his customers have CHL's and are likely to be carrying unless prohibited.

So why post a confusing sign, or assume that your customers are mind readers?

Why not post a sign that says "No loaded guns allowed in the store. If you're legally carrying concealed, your carry gun must remain holstered and concealed at all times."?

That doesn't seem all that difficult.

A gun shop must comply with a myriad of federal, state and local laws simply to stay in business.

So which one of those laws says they can't allow CHL holders to carry loaded guns in their stores?

[txinvestigator]

If I run a gunshop I would want my customers and employees handling loaded guns in the storefront as seldom as possible. If one one understands the intent, the signs are not unreasonable.

Of course. But who said anything about "handling" loaded guns?

Not me, that's for sure.

If there was a sign saying "No handling of loaded guns", I wouldn't have any problem with it.

But that's not what the signs say. They say, "no loaded guns". My carry piece is a "loaded gun". So unless I'm supposed to be some kind of a mind reader, how am I supposed to know that the sign is not meant to apply to me? Forget for the moment that I might NOT CARE. How am I supposed to KNOW?

Forget the 30.06 angle. Obviously, such signs are non-compliant, so no trespass is committed should a CHL holder carry on the premesis. That's not the issue.

And a gun shop owner doesn't have to be a lawyer to know that SOME of his customers have CHL's and are likely to be carrying unless prohibited.

So why post a confusing sign, or assume that your customers are mind readers?

Why not post a sign that says "No loaded guns allowed in the store. If you're legally carrying concealed, your carry gun must remain holstered and concealed at all times."?

That doesn't seem all that difficult.

A gun shop must comply with a myriad of federal, state and local laws simply to stay in business.

So which one of those laws says they can't allow CHL holders to carry loaded guns in their stores?

It's obvious that you get it. Now you are just arguing to defend your position, which IMO is not really reasonable.

[KBCraig]

Given the risks they face just doing their day-to-day business, I'm not surprised that dealers know very little about other legal matters like CHL, or the laws for self defense.

What do you mean, "the risks they face just doing their day-to-day business"?

Greybeard inferred correctly: I meant the risk of losing their license, their livelihood, their business investment, or even going to prison, if all the jots and tittles aren't properly applied to the paperwork.

Kevin

[Liberty]

If I run a gunshop I would want my customers and employees handling loaded guns in the storefront as seldom as possible. If one one understands the intent, the signs are not unreasonable.

Of course. But who said anything about "handling" loaded guns?

Not me, that's for sure.

If there was a sign saying "No handling of loaded guns", I wouldn't have any problem with it.

But that's not what the signs say. They say, "no loaded guns". My carry piece is a "loaded gun". So unless I'm supposed to be some kind of a mind reader, how am I supposed to know that the sign is not meant to apply to me? Forget for the moment that I might NOT CARE. How am I supposed to KNOW?

Forget the 30.06 angle. Obviously, such signs are non-compliant, so no trespass is committed should a CHL holder carry on the premesis. That's not the issue.

And a gun shop owner doesn't have to be a lawyer to know that SOME of his customers have CHL's and are likely to be carrying unless prohibited.

So why post a confusing sign, or assume that your customers are mind readers?

Why not post a sign that says "No loaded guns allowed in the store. If you're legally carrying concealed, your carry gun must remain holstered and concealed at all times."?

That doesn't seem all that difficult.

A gun shop must comply with a myriad of federal, state and local laws simply to stay in business.

So which one of those laws says they can't allow CHL holders to carry loaded guns in their stores?

I don't understand any dificulty. Any CHL holder was supposed to have taken a class. During the class all CHL holders were supposed to learn about signs that apply to them. If they were not able to learn from that experience it is not the store owners responsibility.

you misattributed me. It wasn't me that said ":A gunshop must comply ..."

[frankie_the_yankee]

[ It's obvious that you get it. Now you are just arguing to defend your position, which IMO is not really reasonable.

"Get" what?

"Defending" what?

And just what is it I have posted that you judge to be "not really reasonable"?

You go to any range and you will see rules. Example: "No firing at a target in another lane." Things like this do not have the force of law. They are house rules. If you fire at a target in another lane, a range officer may order you to leave the range. But what he MAY NOT do is swear out a criminal complaint that you fired at a target in another lane, because doing so is not against the law.

Law aside, you obey the house rules or you have to leave.

So I say again. A sign is posted that says, "No loaded guns." Now OF COURSE I know as a CHL holder that it is not 30.06 compliant, and that I cannot be prosecuted for carrying a loaded gun.

But the law says nothing about whether or not I am WELCOME in the shop. That's up to the owner. If he has that kind of a sign, I feel that I am NOT welcome.

A sign could say, "No shirts, no shoes, no service." It's not illegal to enter such a place. But they will most likely not serve you, and will ask you to leave, whereupon you must leave or commit trespass.

If a shop owner has a sign that says, "No loaded guns", he is telling me that I am not welcome.

Pardon me for not being happy about that, and takming my business to places where I AM welcome.

Highland Mall in Austin used to have a "No weapons allowed" sign. It was not 30.06 compliant. Even though I knew I was fully legal carrying there, I felt unwelcome, and took most of my mall business to nearby Barton Creek Mall, that has no such signs.

[frankie_the_yankee]

What do you mean, "the risks they face just doing their day-to-day business"?

Greybeard inferred correctly: I meant the risk of losing their license, their livelihood, their business investment, or even going to prison, if all the jots and tittles aren't properly applied to the paperwork.

Kevin

So how do they lose their licenses or go to prison by allowing CHL's to carry loaded guns in the store?

Or how do they lose their licenses or go to prison if they post a sign that says "No loaded guns allowed except for legally carried guns that must remain holstered and concealed."?

[Greybeard]

Frank -

While Kevin may again come along and reply for himself, I believe that if you'll re-read what he and I both said within the context of responding to your "the only risk I'm aware of is getting robbed" comment, he summed up some of the FFL risks in particular with "if all the jots and tittles aren't properly applied to the paperwork."

But on the subject of signage, often even if intent is spelled out in black and white, there is a certain percentage of people who
will claim "did not see it" or seem to think "that does not apply to me". And range operators (and/or their insurance carriers), like many other business owners, sometimes have the pleasure of dealing (at least once) with certain individuals who simply fit in the category of "unconsciously incompetent".

[Tote 9]

If I run a gunshop I would want my customers and employees handling loaded guns in the storefront as seldom as possible. If one one understands the intent, the signs are not unreasonable.

BINGO.

As a person who has worked at a range, I can't tell you how many "unloaded" guns customers whipped out for whatever reason, and how many I ticked off when I demanded they immediately PUT IT DOWN, and how many were thoroughly embarrassed when I removed a round from the chamber.

No one is afraid a CHLer will go crazy and attack them. They are afraid one of you will "know" your gun is unloaded, then accidentally shoot someone with that unloaded gun.

The majority of the CHL people here ARE smart and safety conscience. But many in general are not. The majority of people attending renewal classes have not shot since their last qualification.

If you go to a gun shop (no range) and there is no 30.06 sign posted but a "no loaded guns" sign is, then carry away as long as you don't intend to access your carry gun for something. If, for example, you are looking for a new holster for you Carry piece and you know you will want to try the fit, then unload before you enter. THAT is what the owner wants.

If it is a gun range and you intend to shoot with your carry piece: if a "no loaded guns" sign is posted but no 30.06, then carry away. If you intend to shoot with your carry piece, then keep it holstered until ON THE LINE, and maintain all safety rules.

As far as the comment about "The only significant risk [to gun shop employees] that I am aware of is that of getting robbed". A gun shop must comply with a myriad of federal, state and local laws simply to stay in business. Unless he is a CHL instructor he has no reason to know the CHL laws significantly well.

This place (CHL forums) has probably the best educated CHL holders. That said, I often see people post of mistake the law.

Sometimes people just look for reasons to be "offended".

This is not hard to understand, plain and simple. Case closed

[KBCraig]

While Kevin may again come along and reply for himself, I believe that if you'll re-read what he and I both said within the context of responding to your "the only risk I'm aware of is getting robbed" comment, he summed up some of the FFL risks in particular with "if all the jots and tittles aren't properly applied to the paperwork."

Exactly right. Gun dealers aren't responsible to know CHL law any more than they're responsible to know game laws. Many of them do, but only as a result of being in the "gun world".

They are responsible for knowing federal and state firearms laws; not knowing them can result in a quick trip and a long stay.

The gun shop owner who isn't tuned into the subtleties of 30.06 signage and what specific language might make a CHL "feel welcome" really does have bigger things on his mind.

Kevin

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frank -

While Kevin may again come along and reply for himself, I believe that if you'll re-read what he and I both said within the context of responding to your "the only risk I'm aware of is getting robbed" comment, he summed up some of the FFL risks in particular with "if all the jots and tittles aren't properly applied to the paperwork."

I agree. But none of that stuff has anything to do with the topic. In the first post of the thread, bonedigger wrote:

"I think I know the answer to this, but want to check anyway. My local range here in Tyler has a sign posted that says,

"No loaded weapons beyond this point" on the front door. Since I have a CHL and it's not a 30.06 sign, I can carry inside correct? "

Now as far as the state of Texas is concerned, since the sign is not 30.06 compliant, we all know that he can carry inside without violating the law.

But beyond that, a discussion ensued as to the shop owner's INTENT. i.e. does he intend that CHL's not carry in the store? The answer to this is not simple nor trivial. If the shop owner does not want ANYONE having loaded guns in the store, and some CHL patron's gun "prints", the shop owner might tell him to leave - embarassing to say the least.

It is conceivable that the CHL might want to avoid this embarassment if possible. But if the sign just says "no loaded guns beyond this point", how is he to know?

Several people on this site have opined that "Of course" it doesn't apply to CHL's. To those people I say that I applaud their psychic abilities and their powerful reasoning abilities.

But some of them seem to be unaware that some OTHER PEOPLE may lack these mental powers and gifts. Maybe because they have them, they assume that everyone has them. But some of us are not so gifted. To some of us, a sign that says, "No loaded guns beyond this point", most likely means, (Guess what?) "NO LOADED GUNS BEYOND THIS POINT".

Then, we mental midgets ask ourselves, "Is this gun I am legally carrying loaded?" And then we answer ourselves, "Yes. It is."

At that point, our limited brain power leads us to conclude that the shop owner doesn't want us and our loaded guns in his store.

So we respect his wishes, and take our business elsewhere.

Now it's true that shop owners have better things to do than memorize the fine points of CHL law - like maybe figuring out who many of their customers are so they can best serve them. Shopkeepers have been known to do that from time to time. When they do it well, they frequently end up with more customers and more money in the bank than shopkeepers who do it less well.

So to sum up:

1) If a shop has a sign that says "no loaded guns", a CHL holder may carry there without reaking the law.

2) The CHL holder may or may not be welcome in the store while carrying his loaded gun.

3) The only "real" way to know whether or not he is welcome while carrying is to ask.

Unless he is psychic.

4) Another alternative (Yes! This is radical, I know, but go with me here for a minute.) is to assume that the sign means what it plainly says and either leave your carry piece in your car or take your business to another store.

[pbandjelly]

Although this seems to be turning into an impassioned debate, I personally would like to see more dialogue here.

As to my opinion, I am on the fence a bit. I feel like the sign is to insinuate that Loaded firearms, meant to be presented, should be unloaded.
Your carry piece is fine, as long as it stays concealed.

I do agree, however, that the full intent of the Shop Owner's sign can only be fully expressed by said Shop Owner.


aaaaaaaand, I'm out.

[packina45]

I'll just refer back to what I posted on this thread yesterday, to wit:

"Local indoor range and both gun shops I frequent here in the Shreveport/Bossier City area have similar "no loaded firearms" signs. I've asked at all three places, and gotten the same answer from all three:
"Just keep it concealed.""

That being said, is it that darn difficult to ask, guys? There's no need for a lot of drama over a sign, just corner the manager/owner and ask a simple question.

Then you'll have the answer you're looking for.

[pbandjelly]

aaaaaand I'm back in.

PackinA45 :You raise a very valid point, and one to which I will respond in this mindset hereafter. I believe that those who do not wish to bring any scrutiny, or limelight if you will, do so as to follow the precedent set by other forum members in that concealed means concealed. To enlighten someone as to your status of armed/unarmed, is to break that "cardinal rule."

I, however, agree, and feel that free flowing communication between a private party (the shop owner) and a potential customer (all y'all) should be open.
lemme break it down [abbreviated profanity deleted]' ya fellas.
You have a concern, speak up, if you are then made to feel "unwelcome," then by all means, you have the right to proceed elsewhere.

[/drama]

[frankie_the_yankee]

aaaaaand I'm back in.

PackinA45 :You raise a very valid point, and one to which I will respond in this mindset hereafter. I believe that those who do not wish to bring any scrutiny, or limelight if you will, do so as to follow the precedent set by other forum members in that concealed means concealed. To enlighten someone as to your status of armed/unarmed, is to break that "cardinal rule."

I, however, agree, and feel that free flowing communication between a private party (the shop owner) and a potential customer (all y'all) should be open.
lemme break it down [abbreviated profanity deleted]' ya fellas.
You have a concern, speak up, if you are then made to feel "unwelcome," then by all means, you have the right to proceed elsewhere.

[/drama]

Sound's like a good plan to me.