Converting a Gun Loan Into a Purchase

[OldCannon]

And, if the MT cousin comes to Texas, he cna hand the gun to an FFL and the FFL can make the transfer to the Texas cousin.

I don't know of any FFL that would accept a handgun from a person that lives out of state and put it in their A&D books. I sure wouldn't. That's a violation right there, the kind that gets your license taken away.

[OldCannon]

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Keith, I get where you're coming from, but that section was specifically written so that hunters from out of state could rent a long gun and go hunting, or rent a target pistol for a match. The key issue here is frame of reference - if you came from Montana and wanted to borrow my Glock for an IDPA match, you can do that. If you brought your favorite Glock from Montana to "loan" to me, then returned back to Montana without it, you _can't_ do that.

Honestly, the best advice I can give to the OP is to tell their friend to never discuss the matter again

[Oldgringo]

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

{snip}

Honestly, the best advice I can give to the OP is to tell their friend to never discuss the matter again

There it is...in a nutshell.

[bdickens]

One more instance of how the law only punishes the law abiding.

[RoyGBiv]

And, if the MT cousin comes to Texas, he cna hand the gun to an FFL and the FFL can make the transfer to the Texas cousin.

I don't know of any FFL that would accept a handgun from a person that lives out of state and put it in their A&D books. I sure wouldn't. That's a violation right there, the kind that gets your license taken away.

How so?

My understanding is...
1. If I live in MT, I can legally bring my handgun to TX when I'm traveling/visiting here.
2. If I live in MT and want to sell my gun to a TX resident, all I need to do is send it via common carrier to a TX FFL for them to do the paperwork.

If 1 and 2 are true (see question 8), if I can SHIP a handgun to a TX FFL, why can't I WALK one?

[PUCKER]

One more instance of how the law only punishes the law abiding.

I agree, I cannot fathom how this is at all illegal, but apparently it is, and I am not arguing the illegality of it but my small little brain just cannot fathom it being illegal...crazy.

[OldCannon]

And, if the MT cousin comes to Texas, he cna hand the gun to an FFL and the FFL can make the transfer to the Texas cousin.

I don't know of any FFL that would accept a handgun from a person that lives out of state and put it in their A&D books. I sure wouldn't. That's a violation right there, the kind that gets your license taken away.

How so?

My understanding is...
1. If I live in MT, I can legally bring my handgun to TX when I'm traveling/visiting here.
2. If I live in MT and want to sell my gun to a TX resident, all I need to do is send it via common carrier to a TX FFL for them to do the paperwork.

If 1 and 2 are true (see question 8), if I can SHIP a handgun to a TX FFL, why can't I WALK one?

I really need to make a reference table. It's really important to remember the rules for handguns vs rifles/shotguns differs in subtle ways. Let me try it this way
HANDGUNS:
Seller A in other state wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller must use a licensed FFL in their state to ship to a licensed FFL in Texas
Seller A from other state, but CURRENTLY in Texas, wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller can physically take the handgun to a licensed FFL in Texas

RIFLES/SHOTGUNS:
Seller A in other state wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller can ship directly to a licensed FFL in Texas
Seller A from other state, but CURRENTLY in Texas, wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller can physically take the RIFLE/SHOTGUN to a licensed FFL in Texas

I'm starting to feel this way about the thread


I do understand that it's pretty easy to get confused about all the rules though. I prefer to call this a "character building experience"

[alvins]

if this was a rifle or shotgun then maybe legal; what hand gun for "sporting purpose"?They are talking about rifles and shotguns for sporting purpose (hunting).i dont think this sale is legal without an ffl.

[RoyGBiv]

HANDGUNS:
Seller A in other state wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller must use a licensed FFL in their state to ship to a licensed FFL in Texas
Seller A from other state, but CURRENTLY in Texas, wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller can physically take the handgun to a licensed FFL in Texas

I do understand that it's pretty easy to get confused about all the rules though. I prefer to call this a "character building experience"

With as much deference as I can express via the written word, as I am not an expert on this subject... I read the ATF web site and come up with a very different answer.. Can you please provide a reference for your statements? Would be very much appreciated.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-fre ... ed-persons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I read the following, I feel quite clearly that the ATF is saying that I, myself, using a common carrier, can ship a Firearm directly to a Licensee (FFL) in ANY State.

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Relocation: Note that the ATF responses do not distinguish between handguns and long guns.

Q: May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods?
Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.
Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]

However..... Now that I reside in TX, I can sell my "Firearms", directly, without an FFL, to any TX resident (that is not prohibited from possessing a firearm)... No??

Q: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?
When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents.

[OldCannon]

HANDGUNS:
Seller A in other state wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller must use a licensed FFL in their state to ship to a licensed FFL in Texas
Seller A from other state, but CURRENTLY in Texas, wants to sell to Buyer B in Texas: Seller can physically take the handgun to a licensed FFL in Texas

I do understand that it's pretty easy to get confused about all the rules though. I prefer to call this a "character building experience"

With as much deference as I can express via the written word, as I am not an expert on this subject... I read the ATF web site and come up with a very different answer.. Can you please provide a reference for your statements? Would be very much appreciated.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-fre ... ed-persons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I read the following, I feel quite clearly that the ATF is saying that I, myself, using a common carrier, can ship a Firearm directly to a Licensee (FFL) in ANY State.

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Context matters.

We are all referring to the ATF FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-fre ... ms-carrier" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

You grabbed the first FAQ, which is correct, but refers to _personal conveyance_ of the firearm, not to a common or contract carrier. So, "shipping" doesn't apply to the FAQ you cited.

There are followup FAQs which refer to _shipping_ a firearm:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[RoyGBiv]

^^^ Ok.. but... clearly... I can legally ship a firearm directly to a "licensee in ANY State"...

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[gigag04]

He should pay via paypal just to really throw a wrench in the system...

[AlaskanInTexas]

Thanks for all the insight. Here is the advice I gave: Take the gun with you next time you go to Montana (the Montana guy isn't coming here any time soon). If you really want to buy it, then pay a little money and have it sent through a Montana FFL to a Texas FFL. I think $30-$40 bucks will be worth the piece of mind of knowing the transfer is legit. As for the loan, it is a .454 Casul and he wanted to give it a try on some hogs, so I think they fit in the loan exception for now.

As for the purpose of the law, I think that the drafters probably sat in a room and said "how can we make those crazy gun owners' lives more cumbersome, yet make it look like we are doing something to fight crime?"

[Pecos]

My guess....

Next time his friend is in town, walk in to a TX FFL and make the transfer.
I believe the gun in the MT friends hand is fine in TX (unloaded if he's going to ask a FFL to fondle it).
MT guy hands gun to FFL, FFL does paperwork, FFL hands gun to TX guy.

Just my opinion. IANAL.

Almost like a wedding !!!

[GeekwithaGun]

The obvious solution here is to remove the "F" from the BATF